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Poll: Length of course you would like to play Options
MSQ
Posted: Saturday, May 03, 2008 5:59:13 PM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 6/3/2004
Posts: 29
Location: Lynchburg, Ohio
Let's say you were designing a new course and you know it was going to be long (make that, LLLOOONNNNGGGGG).  How long would too long be?  How about two sets of tees, with a large difference in length (but who cares about the short tees at this point).  Now, without knowing anything else, what length would you like it to be?  Total length of 18 holes, and total length of the walk including between holes?  It's just a theoretical question, so I'm not expounding.  


Idlewild:
8220ft/ 18 = 457ft avg, 3 holes mid 600's, 1 at 1001
Guest
Posted: Saturday, May 03, 2008 6:40:06 PM
Rank: Guest

Joined: 11/19/2007
Posts: -247
you could make an 18-hole course follow the appalachian trail, nine up and nine back.
MSQ
Posted: Sunday, May 04, 2008 1:58:43 PM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 6/3/2004
Posts: 29
Location: Lynchburg, Ohio
Hmmm, that might be too long to host a tournament. I was thinking more along the lines of Idlewild at 8220. Does that make you too tired? If you can drive 300 to 400 feet, an upshot of 150 to 200 ought to be kosher, so hole lengths of 450 to 600 should be the norm. Make several holes 600 to 700, a couple of 800's, and a few 900 to 1200 foot holes, with variety of terrain, elevation, open, woods, creek, whatever. So would a nice distance, to make "true par 4's 5's or 6's" for example, be 50% longer than Idle, at 12,000? Would 20,000 feet total length of 18 be too long? Just playing with numbers in your head. What's a good walking distance... if course plays 12,ooo feet, then all the walking from start to finish might be about 3.5 miles. Would you travel an hour to play a course because you knew it would challenge you every time due to the length of the holes? Some people travel to Idlewild because they know it's a challenge (mainly due to length of holes). I'm wondering if Cinci players would be enticed to drive to Hillsboro area if a 12,000 foot course were here, simply because of the challenge due to length.
DanH
Posted: Sunday, May 04, 2008 8:10:39 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 4/4/2006
Posts: 515
Location: Lebanon, OH
I think the time it takes to play the course is more important than the actual length, but it will be roughly proportional. Idlewild is already pushing the limit because it's tough to finish a round after work, it's hard to fit two rounds in at a tournament, it takes a lot of time out of your day, etc. I love Idlewild, but I wouldn't want it to take any longer to play than it already does. So a 12,000 ft course would be too much if the holes were difficult. And if they were easy holes, then it would be boring because it would just be a distance shot every time.
MSQ
Posted: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:52:31 PM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 6/3/2004
Posts: 29
Location: Lynchburg, Ohio
good feedback. thanks DanH.
Ben Shooner
Posted: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:29:23 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/16/2003
Posts: 248
There's more to it than just length. I personally love long courses that include terrain (hills, trees, water, etc.). #15 at Idlewild is great-not because it's 1000 ft....but because you have to deal with the rolling ridges, and the descent into the creek at the end. Mt. Airy is not extremely long-but is very challenging...you can play it in 2 hours or less, but it's still hard to shoot par. Long courses are great, but not if it's just 'long for the sake of being long'.
13ruce-1337
Posted: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:51:43 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/16/2008
Posts: 199
The longer the better .. and while we are at it could we double the size of the target too please .. thanks.
bobherb
Posted: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:54:29 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 445
I co-designed Idlewild with Fred. When we were in the design phase we chose not to strive for an extraordinarily long course, rather, a course with a combination of decent distance and technical, tightly wooded fairways. Also, we tried to involve the existing natural hazards (such as the creek) as much as possible.

To expound on what Dan (and others now) wrote, the par on some of the holes is governed more by the tight, low ceiling fairways. Hole #8 for example, is about 370' but is unreachable due to the tight, difficult fairway. Hole #6 is less than 600', but is rarely reached in 2 shots because of the double doglegging fairway. In contrast, hole #15 is often reached in 2 shots even though it is over 1000', because the big arms can cut loose with big "D" in the open field.

We could have made the course 12,000 to 15,000 feet long with most of the holes out in the open and it would have taken less time to design, maintain, AND play. It would also have been much less interesting and groups of players would also have felt more disconnected with one another due to the wide dispersal of shots all over the wide fairways. Imagine playing a hole like #15 over and over for 3 hours.

Idlewild was designed to challenge players to throw long AND accurately. Ask anyone who has a big arm and has been playing for a while and they will likely tell you they are a bit tentative to cut loose at Idlewild. I have played 10,000' ++ courses in the past 18 years, some were fun and others were boring. Courses which are interesting and challenging, and have a learning curve keep you coming back.
13ruce-1337
Posted: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:57:22 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/16/2008
Posts: 199
Um in short pin placement i have seen 8 deuced many times i think ive done it myself .. the extra 75 up the hill is hard but still do able..   and 6 is the devil .. thanks

bobherb
Posted: Monday, May 05, 2008 12:03:16 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 445
#8 is now permanent in the long position (for tournaments) I believe - let us know how many 4+ scores you take on it before you deuce it in the long position...? ...and thanks for the compliment about #6!!!
It's ALIVE!!!
agentdozzer
Posted: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:06:25 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/14/2006
Posts: 286
I to dueced 8 in the old postion and i am a amauter compared to alot of tournament players. Up the hill is much harder i hate to love it. Six is alive taking a five there is like a birdie to me.
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