Welcome Guest Search | Active Topics | Members

Sounding Off Options
discndat
Posted: Friday, September 06, 2013 11:56:48 AM

Rank: Expert

Joined: 3/1/2003
Posts: 1,551
Well, after reading a few of the threads on here that were about divisions in the  CCS and other tournaments, I thought I'd just make a thread for us to throw some stuff out there rather than take over other threads. Here's just a few of my random thoughts on divisions, tournaments, etc.:

It's just a never-ending conversation/argument when you have so many different levels of competitors and the opportunity for those players to play almost wherever they want. Am players can play Pro and decline cash. Pro players can play Am.

And there are soooo many different divisions. It's really gotten a little ridiculous to me. I think it has just watered down the competitive fields. The “everybody needs to win” mentality and the Amateur prize/player packs have fostered a monster I'm not sure our sport will recover from.

I'd rather see 1 Pro division with a Pro age-protected division starting at 50. Good players can play competitively well into there 40's. No, not all, but it would make for a larger competitive pro division and the age-protected division would also be more competitive because at 50 there are more players whose skills/physical condition and abilities are more equal. A 50 year old playing with a 40 year old is really quite different in most cases.

For Ams, have two different divisions and again 1 age protected division starting at 50. If you really feel like you have to have another one, make it an entry-level that you compete in for a set period of time/tournaments. Actually, all Am divisions should have a more difinitive criteria for moving up.

The thing for me is yes, we all want to play well and we want to win. But, as in all other aspects of life, we can't all win all the time. We don't all have high-paying jobs, we don't all win at cards, tennis, fantasy football or whatever. But disc golf seems to think you have to have a division for everyone to win.

I don't think we should have so many PDGA events. So many of our events are just so a tournament can be played at every course and so people can say they played in a tournament. Then we talk about the casuals or recreational players as being less-than us when in fact many of our players – Masters, Grandmasters, Novice, Rec, Intermediate and Advanced players are really not much different – most of us are really just recreational players – we just happen to play in organized events and we feel that puts us above the casual/recreational player. Oh, we know the rules and we play by them – do we always? Well, that's another discussion.

 And Amateurs get to play the same courses as pros, pay lower entry fees, get players packs and get prizes that easily convert to cash or cash equivalent. Yet, the Pros find themselves in a different mentality of play when they are playing for money. They paid more, didn't get a players pack and if they don't cash, they simply paid more money to play than the Ams.

And yes, I'm a Pro Grandmaster and a tournament director of several events.

Madmike
Posted: Friday, September 06, 2013 12:25:14 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/4/2009
Posts: 400
Well said boss
alex.e
Posted: Friday, September 06, 2013 3:51:43 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/13/2012
Posts: 227
Location: Batavia
I completely agree with all of that. Dan, you're a smart feller. On the issue of payouts, Am divisions already pay out half the field, correct me if I'm wrong, so that should be plenty of incentive for guys to come out and compete, even if there were only 2 divisions minus age protected divisions.
perica
Posted: Friday, September 06, 2013 8:51:04 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 370
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
I'm with you, Dan. I've always viewed the players-pack incentive ... more specifically the people who place such a high priority on having a player pack, as a bit annoying. I like the rare tournaments I get to play in these days out of the social interaction and just enjoying competition, I guess I'm in the minority. The proliferation of divisions is also ridiculous. Real golf - it's not called ball golf, people ;) - gives a pretty good blueprint. A professional division, an age-protected pro division, and an amateur division ... granted, they play in different tournaments, but that has succeeded for a long time.

As for the big boys in the open division. I sympathize with you for the most part. Higher entry fees with a lower probability of placing must be stressful for the vast majority of non-touring pros. I however have NO sympathy for the crybabies that whine about how the payouts need to be so much larger while they suck down expensive micro-brew and puff on artisan grass after a tournament.
brutalbrutus
Posted: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 7:12:10 AM
Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 4/16/2012
Posts: 721
Location: amelia
or they complain about payouts and then not show up to our b tier local tourney that had $700 added to the pot its just sad we only had 50 something people out for the pig
NatiBuckeye
Posted: Friday, September 13, 2013 5:49:58 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 8/13/2008
Posts: 349
Location: Mt lookout
Well said Dan
NatiBuckeye
Posted: Friday, September 13, 2013 5:51:47 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 8/13/2008
Posts: 349
Location: Mt lookout
perica wrote:
. I however have NO sympathy for the crybabies that whine about how the payouts need to be so much larger while they suck down expensive micro-brew and puff on artisan grass after a tournament.


Or during, lets be honest
perica
Posted: Friday, September 13, 2013 10:15:32 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 370
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
Let's not hijack this to complain only about a select minority of professional players. The far more pervasive issue is the "i want a stack of plastic guaranteed" standpoint that is so prevalent in the amateur ranks. It is this expectation that makes a tournament director's job so much more difficult.
NatiBuckeye
Posted: Saturday, September 14, 2013 10:18:26 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 8/13/2008
Posts: 349
Location: Mt lookout
That mindset is the same across the board. Everyone plays in the division they think they are most likely to win. A small group plays to compete and get better in a higher division. Honestly though what's the point, they either donate and hope to get better or cash consistently. Without a smaller number of divisions, stricter rules to force player movement, or a change in rankings nothing will change.

I believe the CCS can fix this if they created a standard for player movement and lowered the number of AM divisions based on age

DiscDogNation
Posted: Saturday, September 14, 2013 10:28:05 PM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 7/9/2012
Posts: 46
Location: West Chester, OH
NatiBuckeye wrote:
I believe the CCS can fix this if they created a standard for player movement and lowered the number of AM divisions based on age


 so you are tired of getting beat by older people .....  and you want a way to move them out of your division ?
finnhawc
Posted: Sunday, September 15, 2013 3:51:34 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 924
Location: Wyoming
All tournaments that are't A tier or above would be well served to play only one day tourneys. With today's economic realities drawing folks from out-of-town gets very difficult.
It is a cool thing to travel and play a variety of competitors. It is even cooler to play locally and have players travel here.

Tournaments make money off AMS and have no vested interest in drawing Pros. Back when I was an AM we would go watch Pro tournaments because ours was held Sat and theirs was on Sun. Just watching helped us learn to play smarter in tourneys. BTW $5 from every Am entry went to the Pro purse and Am payouts were fat.

It would be brave if all non-fugitive posters would identify themselves in their profile so that discourse started on this forum could be clarified in person.
schick
Posted: Monday, September 16, 2013 2:10:48 PM
Rank: Regular

Joined: 5/4/2008
Posts: 59
Location: Columbus
Hey Dan,

I could not agree more and feel like things could be reeled back in at the local level around the state. Here was a post I made a couple months ago on the C-bus message board.....in short, it was in response to some complaints about Ams that were sandbagging.

Larry and Scott,

This is not a slam on you, but more on the system that we have. The ratings for Ams and the number of divisions that we have is absolutely insane in my opinion. If you look at the results for Turtle Creek and probably a lot of other tourneys, all of the Am divisions shoot such similar scores. There is always an exception and in this event it was the winners of some of the divisions, but most others shot the same scores, yet there are 5 different divisions. It amazes me that there are75 AMS, with five different divisions and you have a ratings spread that could span all of those levels. I really do not understand Am Masters and Am Grandmasters, why not just play Am and play within your rating? Why canibalize those divisions down when all of you are rated the exact same? Now you have 4 Advanced players who are stuck with no one to play with....just crazy to me. When I first started back in the early 90's, there was Pro, Masters, Am 1 and Am 2....that was it. I loved having divisions of 30-40 in the Am ranks, now people just bounce around to where they think they can win? Maybe I am wrong....Am I the only one who thinks it's odd to have 15 Am World Champions in one year?

Larry and Scott, I personally think you both should try to play up a division and play with better players. It will only help your game and both of you will see big improvements. Don't let the PDGA ratings tell you where you have to play, you can see how much overlap there is between divisions. It's comical to me that you have guys who are 914 in the Advanced and guys who are 900 playing Rec.....you realize that is about 1 stroke per round that the 914 rated player will beat the 900 rated player per round but they are playing two divisions lower? If you all played together, you would have some sweet divisions, just sayin'.

NatiBuckeye
Posted: Monday, September 16, 2013 10:43:45 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 8/13/2008
Posts: 349
Location: Mt lookout
DiscDogNation wrote:


 so you are tired of getting beat by older people .....  and you want a way to move them out of your division ?


less age divisions would increase the number of Chris Engels that beat me
brutalbrutus
Posted: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 11:58:00 AM
Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 4/16/2012
Posts: 721
Location: amelia
lol
Discgolfnut
Posted: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 1:35:44 PM
Rank: Regular

Joined: 3/31/2011
Posts: 89
i like the idea of having fewer Am divisions if the entry fees were lowered. It's nice to have a tourney stamped disc but its not a requirement for me.
sisyphus
Posted: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 2:57:34 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 1/20/2012
Posts: 315
Location: Eastgate
As a 'sophomore' disc golfer, I've enjoyed playing Rec, Intermediate, and Advanced Grand Masters (all Amateur). For my first dozen tourneys (or two), I still thought it was neat to get some player's pack goodies, and I was proud to win merch credits when I was able. I really think we do need to be sure folks at that stage of their interest in the sport are encouraged somehow to participate. Keep in mind the folks who actually participate in tournament play are still in the minority out of all the casuals (and some veterans) who go out to these great courses. There is a huge pool of folks there who might come on out & give it a shot, if the incentive were provided.

Now, I do see the fact that, once you're shooting 'adequate' rounds in competition, and your consistency is starting to come together, it is more fun to play in larger player pools than always competing with the same half dozen guys (not that they aren't great fun, it's just MORE fun if you test your mettle against more folks). So I agree we could consolidate some as Dan suggested: Pro, Pro Grandmaster, Am Advanced, Am Rec and Am Grandmaster. There may be more divisions available by pdga standards, but we could gently encourage folks toward these.

For example, though the pre-registered numbers aren't (yet!) big for the Battle of the 'Berg, there are 7 of us in the middle spread over 4 divisions right now, whose ratings are very similar. Obviously we all want to play Am, and we all get along great. I've already mentioned to Dan that he can group me however he needs to. And I'm sure most of that group would feel the same way.

--Jeff A.
topherb
Posted: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 11:17:34 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 5/20/2009
Posts: 417
Location: 859
Good times!
DrewMiller(RH)
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 12:01:58 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/25/2009
Posts: 205
Location: Loveland
The PDGA has designed the system to build the AM base, the more AMs, the more money for pros, directly and indirectly as a result of sponsorship interest.

Take a look at the PDGA ratings distribution http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/Ratings_YE2012_Detail_Stats.pdf

30% of AMs are 880 or less, 46% fall between 880 and 930, and 25% are 930 or better, makes you wonder where they came up with 900 as cut off for Rec and 935 for AM2.

The system is designed to encourage AM turnout, larger AM fields benefit the Pro players who in turn legitimize the sport.

When I was playing consistently, I could sign up in Rec as an 880 player and play poorly and easily cash, that's why I started playing more INT, mainly because it didn't seem right to me, getting something and not earning it....this data really tells the story, if you are to have 3 rec fields, you should have a cut off at 880 and 930. New players getting started wouldn't be getting blasted and discouraged as much, and people like me would be forced to play well to win given they would be competing with 930 rated players,

Having seen some additional data from the disc golf course designers group, ratings actually correlate to capabilities, naturally occurring plateaus in performance across the population of players...I.E. distance.

I think this data is also very revealing about the pro fields as well, especially those protected by Age.
bobherb
Posted: Sunday, September 22, 2013 12:13:19 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 449
Dan does have a point about the over 50 gang. When I was 46 my player rating was around 995 but has steadily declined since. Also, I still remember cashing in my first pro event, being thrilled to split $50 at the Checkered Flag tourney in Indianapolis circa 1992??? My motivation was huge in those days and I was glad just to be playing period. I was 32 playing against many 20 year olds. As I recall, there were only 2 pro divisions and 2 am divisions back then.
Zepledelin
Posted: Sunday, September 22, 2013 3:56:25 PM
Rank: Regular

Joined: 5/29/2010
Posts: 74
The courses getting bigger hurts the older guys but there are some advantages also. You get a 50 year old that's been playing for 30 years against a 25 year old on a smaller tighter course the older Guy has the edge. The best pros don't get in trouble much and they're good at getting out of trouble. Most guys in their mid 40s and 50s get out driven but 30 years experience gives you time to know.a lot of discs and to have good control and shot selection and you've got to hit some long putts . Take the holes over 350 or 400 feet out and older guys should be just slight underdogs if at all. I love the long holes though because I love a good midrange shot and to grow the game and bring in young athletic guys who could play a more popular game to play disc golf you need some big holes. They want to throw hard and a mile and I don't blame them a bit.I'm 47 and sucks when you drive shorter every year. Other parts of my game are still improving. A little weight training could take a couple years off too.
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS

YAFPro Theme Created by Jaben Cargman (Tiny Gecko)
Yet Another Forum.net version 1.9.1.7 running under DotNetNuke.
Copyright © 2003-2006 Yet Another Forum.net. All rights reserved.