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2010 New Year's Day Tourney Options
Liz
Posted: Saturday, January 02, 2010 9:45:31 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 7/21/2003
Posts: 491
Location: West L.A.
105 people came out to start the New Year at Winton! Congrats to Jim Ferrara for shooting a pair of 40's to win the Open division, we were still out of there before sunset, thanks everyong for their help! I'll need to rethink my wardrobe for next year!
Phil Miller
Posted: Saturday, January 02, 2010 5:43:48 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 12/12/2003
Posts: 503
Location: Where it gets the hose again.
Liz wrote:
105 people came out to start the New Year at Winton! Congrats to Jim Ferrara for shooting a pair of 40's to win the Open division, we were still out of there before sunset, thanks everyong for their help! I'll need to rethink my wardrobe for next year!


It's hard to melt jeans. 

Just a thought
Erik
Posted: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 11:28:07 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
Phil Miller wrote:


It's hard to melt jeans. 

Just a thought


Or a bear suit...
DanH
Posted: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 4:24:39 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 4/4/2006
Posts: 515
Location: Lebanon, OH
Thanks Dave Marlow for compiling the results.  The xls and pdf are the same thing, just different formats for your viewing pleasure.

File Attachment(s):
WintonWoods2010Results.xls (30kb) downloaded 102 time(s).
WintonWoods2010Results.pdf (74kb) downloaded 92 time(s).


DanH
Posted: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 4:51:32 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 4/4/2006
Posts: 515
Location: Lebanon, OH
Also, I'd just like to point out that there was no point in making a separate Novice and Advanced division at Winton. The average score of the top 17 players (the whole field) in Advanced was 101. The average score for the top 17 in Novice: 97. The novice field was stronger.
L_Stephens
Posted: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 5:13:26 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 7/6/2008
Posts: 437
Yea..but they played from the short teeslaugh
Erik
Posted: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 9:31:07 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
DanH wrote:
Also, I'd just like to point out that there was no point in making a separate Novice and Advanced division at Winton. The average score of the top 17 players (the whole field) in Advanced was 101. The average score for the top 17 in Novice: 97. The novice field was stronger.


Did you really just say that novice was stronger by comparing 100% of the advanced players to top 44% of the Novice group?  Of course if you kick out over 56% of the worst scores of novice their “average” will look better.

 

Baggers aside (we know people will bag advanced and novice for plastic) the average Advanced score was 101.  The average Open was 92 and the average Novice was 107 (prorating DNF for their second rounds).

 

Given the course this seems like a pretty reasonable statistics
topherb
Posted: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 9:37:03 AM

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Joined: 5/20/2009
Posts: 417
Location: 859
just rename it to not so advanced division!!!
DanH
Posted: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 3:08:23 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 4/4/2006
Posts: 515
Location: Lebanon, OH
Erik wrote:


Did you really just say that novice was stronger by comparing 100% of the advanced players to top 44% of the Novice group?  Of course if you kick out over 56% of the worst scores of novice their “average” will look better.

 

Baggers aside (we know people will bag advanced and novice for plastic) the average Advanced score was 101.  The average Open was 92 and the average Novice was 107 (prorating DNF for their second rounds).

 

Given the course this seems like a pretty reasonable statistics


You can make statistics look like whatever you want depending on what you average, what you prorate, etc, etc.  Maybe I picked a poor statistic here.  My point is that I don't think there was a significant difference between the Novice division and the Advanced division to warrant two divisions. 

Maybe this is a  better way to look at it:  If we had merged the divisions, then the players that would have cashed and not cashed would have been virtually the same.  I can't remember exactly what the payout percentage is, but I think it was about 40%.  At that payout level, it looks like one more guy in Adv would have cashed, and 3 less in Novice would have cashed.  It doesn't even out perfectly due to rounding up to even numbers and ties messing up the numbers.  It could have just as easily been the same exact people cashing give or take a slightly different payout percentage or a missed or made putt here and there.

I'm not trying to make a big deal of this.  I just think it is funny how a course like Winton Woods on New Year's Day levels the playing field.  Clearly there is still a difference between Pro and Am cashing, but between Advanced and Novice, not so much.

L_Stephens
Posted: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 3:17:37 PM

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Joined: 7/6/2008
Posts: 437
Yep...you clearly have a case where it comes down to the putters vs the non putters. I took less cash playing in Masters instead of Open...but not knowing where I would finish before the tournament...it came down to me playing for half the price....and playing against Eades and Bayless. So...price and other people can make a decision for you regardless of where you think you should play.
Erik
Posted: Thursday, January 07, 2010 8:19:51 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
DanH wrote:
My point is that I don't think there was a significant difference between the Novice division and the Advanced division to warrant two divisions. 

I'm not trying to make a big deal of this.  I just think it is funny how a course like Winton Woods on New Year's Day levels the playing field.  Clearly there is still a difference between Pro and Am cashing, but between Advanced and Novice, not so much.



One could also argue that the need for a novice group is heavily needed by the 38 people who registered for it.  There were also plenty of scores in the high 50's and 60's to justify having a Novice division.  Perhaps you should focus more of your effort on eliminating the baggers from advance playing in Novice than trying to eliminate the Novice class all together.

topherb
Posted: Thursday, January 07, 2010 9:36:40 AM

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Joined: 5/20/2009
Posts: 417
Location: 859
make everyone that plays the tourney join gcfda, if they choose not to make them pay a fee for not being a member."even novice" at the beginning of the season before all the gcfda games or just the ccs games, if at the first tourney your gcfda rating is over a set number force the move up . If not a gcfda member but pdga member and your just joining the club ,if your pdga rating is above a set number force the move up!Just an Idea!
Erik
Posted: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:50:54 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
topherb wrote:
make everyone that plays the tourney join gcfda, if they choose not to make them pay a fee for not being a member."even novice" at the beginning of the season before all the gcfda games or just the ccs games, if at the first tourney your gcfda rating is over a set number force the move up . If not a gcfda member but pdga member and your just joining the club ,if your pdga rating is above a set number force the move up!Just an Idea!



Good ideas!

There are alot of creative people out here.  Might as well pool together some ideas on how to solve the problem in keeping people to play within their proper category.
finnhawc
Posted: Thursday, January 07, 2010 12:20:35 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 923
Location: Wyoming
The game has been dealing with this issue for at least twenty years. For me yelling "bagger" at the awards ceremony is about the only pressure that can be applied to move the baggers up to ensure fairness especially for newbies.
StorminSteve
Posted: Thursday, January 07, 2010 12:42:42 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 225
Location: Land of the FREE
Why not bring those issues up at the meetings ? At least in the PGDA's there isn't that much bagging going on ! (cause of the rating system) . If happens in every sport to some degree.
Erik
Posted: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:13:09 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
finnhawc wrote:
The game has been dealing with this issue for at least twenty years. For me yelling "bagger" at the awards ceremony is about the only pressure that can be applied to move the baggers up to ensure fairness especially for newbies.


Has the game been dealing with the problem or just putting up with the problem?  Just because this is the way it has been done in the past doesn’t mean it can not be improved.

 

I think topherb is on to something here with the ratings.  I know Drew Miller (RH) developed a way to translate strokes on a Cincinnati course into PDGA rated round.  Perhaps that same translation could be used here.

 

StorminSteve wrote:
Why not bring those issues up at the meetings ? At least in the PGDA's there isn't that much bagging going on ! (cause of the rating system) . If happens in every sport to some degree.

 

We will never be able to solve this problem completely, but working on ways to minimize the problem is not a bad idea.

discndat
Posted: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:35:45 PM

Rank: Expert

Joined: 3/1/2003
Posts: 1,551
We do discuss this at meetings. We discussed the Novice fees and more at a recent club meeting. This year Novice division players will pay the non-member fee. In the past few years that has been waived. We will probably discuss more Novice division issues at the February meeting. Why not come on out and express your opinion? I do agree that the Novice division could use an overhaul. Novice should really be for those "beginner" players and players whose skills continue to warrant that division. The Advanced division could be a large division and a real stepping stone for moving up to the Pro or Open divisions. One thing to remember is that record keeping, etc. can be cumbersome to keep up with throughout the year and to have the TD of each tourney monitor can present issues in and of itself. I'm not saying there aren't answers to that, just things to consider. Again, I hope we get some more current members to come out to our meetings and talk about it.
StorminSteve
Posted: Thursday, January 07, 2010 2:26:24 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 225
Location: Land of the FREE
Dan please let me know date and time for the meeting . Hopefully it falls on a night that I don't bowl or have ice hockey.
finnhawc
Posted: Thursday, January 07, 2010 4:33:39 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 923
Location: Wyoming
Erik, I assure you there have been many different creative ways to deal with Bagging. I'm all for new ideas. PM me if you'd like details of past failed efforts.
discndat
Posted: Thursday, January 07, 2010 6:00:13 PM

Rank: Expert

Joined: 3/1/2003
Posts: 1,551
Stormin' - they are the second Monday of the month and we meet every two months, so the next one is Monday, February 8, 2010. I'm not sure of the location but we will definitely have it posted here shortly. Hope you can make it. It's also a good time to get your renewals and new memberships going. You can renew and join right here on the website.
discndat
Posted: Thursday, January 07, 2010 8:46:03 PM

Rank: Expert

Joined: 3/1/2003
Posts: 1,551

For those who may bypass the front page and go straight to the message board, we are now adding News articles on the front page and we have a review up now of the New Years Day tourney.

discndat
Posted: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:06:47 PM

Rank: Expert

Joined: 3/1/2003
Posts: 1,551

Ok, I got the pics up on our site now - you can go to the Gallery link above or here's the direct link Pics from NYD tourney

 

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