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INTERMEDIATE DIVISION 2010 Options
b. barnett
Posted: Monday, January 25, 2010 4:42:04 AM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 36
Location: taylor mill/ louisville, ky
GCFDA CCSs should have an intermediate division! It would make for better scored rounds with-in divisions, as well as more fun for everyone. Save the novice division for the less expeirenced & beginners.  I mean you have masters & grand masters when applicable, why not INTERMEDIATE?
Phil Miller
Posted: Monday, January 25, 2010 5:28:20 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 12/12/2003
Posts: 479
Location: Where it gets the hose again.
I've always thought of the Advanced division as Intermediate.
agentdozzer
Posted: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:23:57 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/14/2006
Posts: 287
A intermediate division would be sweet a merge the best of the novice and the bottom of the advanced you should breed alot of competition. They are the two biggest divisions in every tourny last year other than rapid run. I always here play your rating well my rating is Intermediate. I dont want to play novice for this upcoming year, but if i play advanced I am likely to not place in any tournys.
StorminSteve
Posted: Monday, January 25, 2010 8:22:37 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 225
Location: Land of the FREE
Hopefully they will do an Int. Also have enough members to do a Grandmasters for us older players as well. How many over age 50 players are there ?
T_Vincent
Posted: Monday, January 25, 2010 12:10:31 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/25/2007
Posts: 292
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Last year we voted to merge masters and grandmasters since there was not a large field for either. With the two there was good competition.
finnhawc
Posted: Monday, January 25, 2010 4:11:30 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 906
Location: Wyoming
These Course Challenge events are cheap. Pay $10 for an 18 hole lesson and you are getting a deal, IMO. Smart disc golfers trade prizes today for rewards in the long run. "Pros" such as myself, Rabago, Donovan, Phil Miller play in these events as Pro because we'd rather play against folks that are likely better than us which will improve our game and chances of winning in the future. Play up(above you level) at our CCSs and go back down at PDGA events. You game will improve exponentially ( a bunch).
nienaber
Posted: Monday, January 25, 2010 4:50:22 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/24/2008
Posts: 248
Location: Hamilton
Yeah as a person that is the definition of intermediate player I agree with finney...
Basically if you play recreational in PDGA events play novice. If you play intermediate in PDGA events then play advanced. The problem with creating more divisions in the CCS is that you spread the competition out which is no fun.

Just one observation those playing advanced who think they are pros and act like it should play open. If we have inexperienced players playing up at CCS events then be accomodating and help them learn to compete properly.
JRott
Posted: Monday, January 25, 2010 5:25:50 PM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 2/18/2008
Posts: 25
Location: Independence
I don't think one will be added based on past discussions, but I get where you are coming from. Don't hold your breath; fewer divisions are easier to keep track of and I can't disagree with that.

I agree only somewhat with John; you can improve a little by playing with better players by picking up tips, but at some point that will only go so far. Most improvement comes from a ton of practice, play and God given talent. When you play in a lower division the first round you play with at least one, maybe two better players and can pick up tips. The 2nd round you will usually be playing with others of similar skill. When advanced guys move to open, THEY are the "better" player and therefore don't get to pick up tips or play with better competetion. The 2nd round they are then usually playing with others of similar skill, not nessarily someone of better skill. So IMO that argument only goes so far.
In the end, just play where you want to and go by the saying "live, and let live".
agentdozzer
Posted: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:38:19 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/14/2006
Posts: 287
What if you only play GCFDA events?
perica
Posted: Monday, January 25, 2010 10:19:45 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 360
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
On a side note, I have been wanting to run a c-tier for a while that has only advanced and recreational on the am side just to see how much complaining arises.


And if you only play GCFDA events, play whatever it is you play. There are pros who only play GCFDA events.
Ben Shooner
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:44:36 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/16/2003
Posts: 248
There's really no need for another 'open' (non age-based) Am division. If you're even mildly experienced, your feelings shouldn't be hurt if you don't play well enough to cash.
b. barnett
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:06:12 AM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 36
Location: taylor mill/ louisville, ky
 its about not feeling like a sandbagger or donating at every event. its like having an open masters, why cant those guys just play open? novice is for beginners! you want more and more new players to come out and have fun, but those new players dont come back for a reason!
b. barnett
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:09:53 AM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 36
Location: taylor mill/ louisville, ky
i also wanted to add that if you want to bring the pdga into it, then you should also mention that all division are based on pdga ratings.
T_Vincent
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:04:01 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/25/2007
Posts: 292
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Not every decent or good player is a PGDA member. It can be hard to regulate that. Our system may not be perfect, but over the last few years we have seen many more people out at the CCS events. It is not broke, let's try not to fix it and make it worse or harder organize.
Erik
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:19:25 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

Having multiple AM categories is a great idea.  However, their the prizes in such a way that it will make it extremely less desirable to play down and bag.  Using the PDGA rating system for the CCS would also help accomplishing this.

 

Something like:

Advanced - 935+

Intermediate - under 935

Recreational/novice - under 900

 

If a player does not have a rating then one could be created for them.  I know Drew Miller (RH) has converted an entire season of league scores in to PDGA rated rounds for everyone who played.  Obviously if the data is there to do this, we could do it create a similar rating for anyone.

 

Finally, I would also recommend having the cost of all AM be the same ($10 or whatever.)  However, since the prizes go up as the harness increase player packs should be given out to the novice groups to justify spending more money and not getting a good reward for winning. 

NatiBuckeye
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:29:14 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 8/13/2008
Posts: 328
Location: Mt lookout
The problem has more to do with how people signup and less to do with adding divisions. Adding a division would take away from the already smalller ADV and open fields. However if regulars in a division were asked to move up after a certain finish, years of experience, etc... an equal distribution of talent and players could be created.

Although as stated already there is no simple solution to judging where someone should play. Especially considering most ccs events draw in alot of non pdga players.
Erik
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:30:13 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
T_Vincent wrote:
Not every decent or good player is a PGDA member. It can be hard to regulate that. Our system may not be perfect, but over the last few years we have seen many more people out at the CCS events. It is not broke, let's try not to fix it and make it worse or harder organize.


Tony,

I would not consider they system broke, but it could use some tweaking.  After talking to many veteran players they all agree bagging is a problem for the lower non cash divisions.  Player ratings are just a mathematical calculation based on the number of strokes vs. the difficulty of the course.  Why not try to mimic what the PDGA is doing to combat the problem. 
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 2:14:05 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
What all of this hastle tells me is that the ccs has become more popular and important to more people. Thats a success unless were not tryin to grow the sport, which we are. Oh, im sure yal been hearing this debate for yrs and it was important b4 too, ok....thats as far as it got, obviously! But, if thats true..... then there is even much more of a reason to do something about it. In my opinion the reason for the continued drama surrounding the novice card is that novice plyrs dont have any say in it..(like at a meeting)..I mean, ofcourse they can go but they are new and will have to wait a yr to have an opinion. Its simply not the first thing a new player thinks about which makes it our responsibillity. Theres no way tht this many people can talk about this same issue yr after yr b4 its simply fixed.....who wants to be the one to enjoy that many thank you's
topherb
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 4:51:30 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 5/20/2009
Posts: 415
Location: 859
Yes an Inter division is needed! No it will not shrink any of the other divisions. It will only draw more people to play and have alot more return players! I already had pitched the idea of using a rating system. The GCFDA already has a rating system so put it to good use and use it. I also said membership should be mando and novice players should pay the penalty which I think they already plan on doing that for this year.
StorminSteve
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:06:49 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 225
Location: Land of the FREE
A defintion of Novice is a beginner at anything !! A Int. class is needed. Why move up and play Advanced when some "pros " drop down to play in advanced ? Now you have a good novice player playing against a not so good pro player . Some "novice " players have played for up to 6-8 years, is that really a novice ? Hopefully people that are talking about these issues show up at the meeting !
perica
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 6:56:14 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 360
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
topherb wrote:
Yes an Inter division is needed! No it will not shrink any of the other divisions. It will only draw more people to play and have alot more return players! I already had pitched the idea of using a rating system. The GCFDA already has a rating system so put it to good use and use it. I also said membership should be mando and novice players should pay the penalty which I think they already plan on doing that for this year.


Do you really think that the gross amount of players will increase due to the introduction of an intermediate division?

Dayton introduced a rec division in 2009 while they already had advanced and intermediate.  For comparison purposes, this fits perfectly.
The BID series did see an increase of about 2.7 players per event (not counting monroe and oxford since they are jointly run with cincy).  While this is an increase, the biggest jump was the amount of open players at the events.  So it looks like while there was a slight increase, it wasn't the am players that were drawn by this new division.  It just split up the am side into smaller slices.

For those that are curios, including monroe and oxford in the analysis brings the increase in participation down to only 0.55 players per event.
Madmike
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 7:15:27 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/4/2009
Posts: 393
Im playing advanced this year in the course challenge series no matter what happens yea i like the intermediate thoughts but i know some people seem to think i should be in advanced just like last year when everyone said lawrence should have been in advanced and so on and so on maybe this consider tryin it out and see how it goes i can name at least 10 people that would sign up for it its always said that if theres more than 2 or 3 then it can be a division if you try it they will come!!!!!!!!
Open $20 Open
Women $10
Open Master / Grandmasters $20
Advanced $15
Advanced Masters / Grandmasters $15
Intermediate $10
Novice $5
Looks good to me!!!!! ^^^^^^^ Mikey likes it!!!! More money = more payout!!!!!!
Valet
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:05:57 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/15/2009
Posts: 145
Location: Independence
..
topherb
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:05:12 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 5/20/2009
Posts: 415
Location: 859
perica wrote:


Do you really think that the gross amount of players will increase due to the introduction of an intermediate division?

Dayton introduced a rec division in 2009 while they already had advanced and intermediate.  For comparison purposes, this fits perfectly.
The BID series did see an increase of about 2.7 players per event (not counting monroe and oxford since they are jointly run with cincy).  While this is an increase, the biggest jump was the amount of open players at the events.  So it looks like while there was a slight increase, it wasn't the am players that were drawn by this new division.  It just split up the am side into smaller slices.

For those that are curios, including monroe and oxford in the analysis brings the increase in participation down to only 0.55 players per event.



Yup




Valet
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:14:36 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/15/2009
Posts: 145
Location: Independence
Is it at the meeting next month that we'll all get to talk about and vote on this? If so, I can't wait.
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