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INTERMEDIATE DIVISION 2010 Options
Erik
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:19:31 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
Valet wrote:
Is it at the meeting next month that we'll all get to talk about and vote on this? If so, I can't wait.


Feb 8th at Unos on Beechmont Ave.

Can't wait either...
mikekem
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:25:29 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/16/2008
Posts: 400
Location: Lebanon
perica wrote:


Do you really think that the gross amount of players will increase due to the introduction of an intermediate division?

Dayton introduced a rec division in 2009 while they already had advanced and intermediate.  For comparison purposes, this fits perfectly.
The BID series did see an increase of about 2.7 players per event (not counting monroe and oxford since they are jointly run with cincy).  While this is an increase, the biggest jump was the amount of open players at the events.  So it looks like while there was a slight increase, it wasn't the am players that were drawn by this new division.  It just split up the am side into smaller slices. For those that are curios, including monroe and oxford in the analysis brings the increase in participation down to only 0.55 players per event.


topherb wrote:

Yup


Definetely Not.  You're talking about the same pool of players.  They've already been introduced into the game via rec so the next logical set would be to go to Advanced.  Please don't add another division to the mix. Most of the people in rec should be in advanced already. Just move up and don't complicate the issue. 
topherb
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:44:36 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 5/20/2009
Posts: 415
Location: 859
I know 10-15 players that don't even play the ccs anymore because the lack of a inter the only thing that will happen is the top 10-15 players from novice will move up to inter some are going straight to advance because they now know they are advanced players also the bottom worst advanced players may drop down to inter also which is fine because some of the novice is going to advance once the top 10-15 novice players move to advance and inter more novice players will come to play and come back to play.I personally got a least a half a dozen new players to try out the ccs last year and I'v already gotten more players stoked about starting to play it this year but if they dont stand a chance then its going to be hard for them to want to come back !
perica
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 9:13:13 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 360
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
I agree that it is probably disheartening to go into your first cc as a novice and see people that have no business playing in it. The point is that this happened in Dayton and none of the growth that you speak of occurred. It just cannibalized the other am divisions.
nienaber
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 10:41:43 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/24/2008
Posts: 248
Location: Hamilton
the difference between novice/intermediate/advanced is just a few feet and a few more made putts...on a good day I could win advanced and on a bad day I could lose in novice. It is why we are amateurs, if you are getting discouraged then practice more or play for fun and play for the great company of getting to hang out with fellow disc golfers and not be at work...like i am right now
andersab
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:13:42 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 5/22/2006
Posts: 692
Location: in the chains
Valet wrote:
Is it at the meeting next month that we'll all get to talk about and vote on this? If so, I can't wait.


In years past, its always been the CCS Coordinator that determines the divisions that are available, ultimately it should be up to them since they have to run it.
Erik
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:19:02 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

The novice division should not have a large payout.  Make it less and less desiring for an intermediate or advanced player to play as a novice.  Leave it for the true novices to come out and learn the game and leave them wanting to come back to the next CCS. Create value for the new novice player.  Instead rewards at the end of the CCS why not provide motivation to come back next week, give a reward every 2 or 3 CCS events.  Basically a player’s pack for coming out to a couple or few CCS events (a disc, sticker’s, marker disc, ads for local shops, etc…).  This way the Novice would walk away with something promoting them to play more.  I know, a little more work, BUT isn’t promoting new players to play more the best possible place to put your effort?

 

As for the advanced / intermediate thing, I think blending it with this new novice system while using the rating system would easily counteract this problem.  The net effect would be more people playing Open, Advanced, and Intermediate and more people moving up from lower divisions making room for new players to feel welcome.

 

Something like:

Open Series - Whoever wants to compete

Advanced Series -  935 and up

Intermediate Series - under 935

Novice - Any ability level, is rewarded with a players pack every 2 or 3 CCS’s

Erik
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:21:38 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
Valet wrote:
Is it at the meeting next month that we'll all get to talk about and vote on this? If so, I can't wait.


andersab wrote:
In years past, its always been the CCS Coordinator that determines the divisions that are available, ultimately it should be up to them since they have to run it.


Can we vote on who is the CCS Cooridinator then?
DanH
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:26:18 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 4/4/2006
Posts: 515
Location: Lebanon, OH
To keep people from bagging in Novice, I think we need to eliminate the points series for Novice. It's an incentive to not move up after all.

Another thing that would help is to overhaul the ratings system, and have a max rating for Novice.

What we don't need is another division. The Advanced field is already too small, and we'd just be making it smaller.
Erik
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:45:49 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

DanH wrote:
To keep people from bagging in Novice, I think we need to eliminate the points series for Novice. It's an incentive to not move up after all.

 

Exactly.  There needs to be some motivation for novice to play (like I recommended a players pack of some sort), but taken out of the series makes sense.

 

DanH wrote:
Another thing that would help is to overhaul the ratings system, and have a max rating for Novice. What we don't need is another division. The Advanced field is already too small, and we'd just be making it smaller.

 

When you take away the series from Novice The majority of the old Novice players will be playing intermediate.  Put a rating cap on intermediate to eliminate the bagging for the series.

Otterbein_discgolf
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:22:50 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/1/2007
Posts: 169
I think you should go one am division and play only for points at each individual CCS event. Charge $5 per person and play each just to try to win the series points champion where all the big prizes are. Then people who weren't as skilled could still do well just by showing up to all of the events.

You would get a point for each person you beat at each event. Add them up at the end and then pay out whatever percent of players as deemed necessary. At that point you would have $5 from each player at each event built up so the prize base could be pretty large.
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 12:50:35 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
I was thinking....is it possible to fix this by eliminating the "field title" novice ? Heres my point....NOVICE DOES MEAN NEW, so lets picture that player showing up. They're typically carrying a few discs by hand and asking alot of questions. No, not Billy Davis! Back to the picture....our 1st ccs of this yr arrives(call it harbin to set the scene).... a novice or newbie shows up with a few discs in hand, no marker...yada yada. This individual has an entire month to decide wether or not to come back for the 2nd(call it a.j.jolly) at this point that person either got the bug and started throwing more, got a marker and expressed interest in their game thru practice, or they didnt! If they didnt, then why promote new-ism by keeping a "novice" card. If they did.....they arent novice any longer! I proved this last year. Hard to see how simply changing the name to intermediate will help....?....Consider this, the fact is that only a few plyrs this calender yr will be true novices...and some poke out at certain events whn our challenges are in their area, we all KNOW this. Yet we have an entire field (a huge one at that) devoted entirely to the new player. But, the ccs is a 9 month long, multi leg race. So, who is new after even 2 events? Noone! If the newbie is still without a marker and hasnt taken any time to wrk on his or her game then they dont care about it anyway. Or havent caught the bug so to speak....and we all know if ya dont catch the bug the work isnt gonna get done. This sport requires A LOT of action. I mean, as a club if we have our hands on a newbie for 2 challenges they have certainly graduated the being ignorant part....hopefully. More importantly they will be the ones to donate or pay for the lesson from our strong intermediate members(who rock! and arent new! or good enough yet to go advanced!) They dont wanna donate to me anymore...ive played with these guys for a yr. Im moving up and if all my contenders from last yr did we would have a repeat, maybe. But the very reason for such a cool play off at boone between all those guys (which is shaping up to be a major and exciting battle ths yr) is becuz the right people moved up. But these guys dont wanna sign advanced......they wanna be validated for exactly what they are, intermediate playrs. Lets put the focus on the players tht work hard at it but struggle. Its a better lesson for a true green horn anyway. The guilt will fall from those that cant move up to advanced and The bagger tlk will fall on deaf ears! The phrasing has to make sense...it shouldn't be put,"intermediate IS our novice card". The club can assume that if you show up to an organized event that(while loose and fun)that you are intermediate through our process. That to me sounds encouraging! It would be a change, but a good argument could be made that it will strengthen our clubs lower ranks and promote more mentoring. It can be said that moving up improves your game but i think teaching helps even more. My experience is limited and i am really only trying to help. I also know that one yr i will have a strong opinion about something to find out later it was absurd. It doesnt do me any good to argue this point, i need all those guys to move up to advanced so i can TRY to pick on em again. But, if anything i said makes sense then it was worth the time. I do care about the club

ps...it felt rediculous to me rating a 952 at idlewild as a novice. The point is that our process turns you into an intermediate plyr  immediately,  if ya wanna wrk at it! if ya dont, sell me ur discs lol
Erik
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:11:43 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
Sc0rch3d - So you want novice to be renamed intermediate and you are moving up to advanced next season and want your competition to move with you...

Have your rating that mandates people move up!

I agree with eliminating the Novice segment from the series. But there needs to be something offered for new players. That is why I was recommending a players pack after a couple CCS events. It is a reason for a Novice to come out and learn. I foresee this being a very light category and since it is not in the series records of their scores will not need to be added making only 3 classes anyways.
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:38:05 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
[quote=Erik]Sc0rch3d - So you want novice to be renamed intermediate and you are moving up to advanced next season and want your competition to move with you...

didnt follow tht? they wont follow me if im advanced and they sign intermediate. there are a few that should def come with me and im sure they will.....but sat at boone was an ideal intermediate card. All those guys have been playin for awhile and work hard, and dubl hard on their games. So, bring em with me for another difficult yr or open a field that validates the truth

an added note: we have a multitude of seasoned and intelligent players that came b4 alot of us....I cant imagine all the work and discussions they have gone thru to shape the ccs. And it does rock! Seniority probably chuckles off a # of feverish "green horn" ideas every year for reasons i will only understand as time passes.  But Since Im fresh off of a 2009 novice stint i will come to the meeting, im gonna listen and learn..... If i can help then great
Ben Shooner
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 2:15:24 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/16/2003
Posts: 248
nienaber wrote:
the difference between novice/intermediate/advanced is just a few feet and a few more made putts...on a good day I could win advanced and on a bad day I could lose in novice. It is why we are amateurs, if you are getting discouraged then practice more or play for fun and play for the great company of getting to hang out with fellow disc golfers and not be at work...like i am right now


Nail on the head. This why you play the game so to speak. Still-there are times when a Novice score would have cashed in Open-and that is just ridiculous.

I think omitting Novice from the points series would help. But the idea of only giving players packs every few CCSs would be tough too. Lots of people can only make certain tourneys due to their schedules, and it's not fair to penalize them for having other commitments.

This will always be a debate as long as disc golf straddles that line between a recreational activity and a competitive sport. There will always be bagging, debating, tweaking, and imperfections. But imperfections nonwithstanding, it's always a chance to play with a wide group of people and have fun.
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 2:52:30 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
[Ben Shooner]
This will always be a debate as long as disc golf straddles that line between a recreational activity and a competitive sport.


With all due respect ben, i feel we cross the line from recreational when theres cash involved. We should keep the door open for those who wanna play for fun but the truth is that our club runs a yr long multi leg event tht requires alot of travel and expenses. It can be recreational and just a fun day of frollicking about,  forgetting the woes of our planet for some......but i only get that feeling whn im with friends scouting courses and just doin our thing. For most of us, even those days dont pass without a goal in mind.... to improve our edge and become more competitive, for the ccs. We cant help that the venue draws so much emotion......imagine where it would be without that! Lets give these guys an intermediate card. If a couple people show up that are obviously new and only wanna compete against the other  1 or 2 true rec playrs then squeeze em on a rec card ......$5 ENTRY, $2 NON-MEMBER FEE ....CTP IF DESIRED. There may be 3 or 5 sign up....sometimes none, but you can if you wish. Better to win against 3 people than lose against 40, but you have a choice. The incentive to NOT play rec is tht it holds no weight toward the yr total. No payout either! If a player is really new they might need a gcfda membership, so use the funds on tht smaller card to purchase it for the newbie winner...that promotes the club, among other obvious bennefits.....(20% discount at discndat for instance!) If tht doesnt suit em split up the 10 or 15 dollars and scribble half the monetary total on a merchandise voucher...done!  With one win under your belt on a rec card and a gcfda membership for the yr ( for winning 1st  on tht card), 30 days b4 another event,....... if you show back up you are accepting that its time to move on, enjoy your membership........noone wins twice on a rec card. You can donate your money to the rec card anytime you'd like if you feel like just being recreational that day(no award, just fun) but 1st place and the GCFDA membership or few dollars goes to a new 1st place winner, period.
andersab
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 3:16:20 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 5/22/2006
Posts: 692
Location: in the chains
Erik wrote:


Can we vote on who is the CCS Cooridinator then?


No, I think that is President assigned... kind of like a cabinet.
NEngle
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 3:33:37 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 11/18/2003
Posts: 944
Location: Fairfield, OH
More divisions = more baggers.
Erik
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 3:55:31 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

Ben Shooner wrote:
Nail on the head. This why you play the game so to speak. Still-there are times when a Novice score would have cashed in Open-and that is just ridiculous.

 

Using player ratings would help mitigate this issue.  Although there will always be a player who gets really lucky / improves along the way who will be called a bagger.

Ben Shooner wrote:
I think omitting Novice from the points series would help. But the idea of only giving players packs every few CCSs would be tough too. Lots of people can only make certain tourneys due to their schedules, and it's not fair to penalize them for having other commitments.

 

When you eliminate the Novice from the series points, there will be a HUGE drop off from people playing it.  So few that it will not make sense to furnish prizes for them.  To substitute for prizes during and at the end for the Novice division, make sure everyone who makes 3 events (not in a row, just in the same CCS year) gets a player pack.  Novice / new players need some motivation to come out.  I think this might be the motivation they need.

agentdozzer
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:31:40 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/14/2006
Posts: 287
Madmike
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:34:05 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/4/2009
Posts: 393
I talked to Dan Bayless today and really put things into perspective, my new opinion is to shut up and throw if ya cant take what ya got then dont come play we are a big family out there on T-day lets just have some fun and enjoy that we even have this every year all this is is to prepare yourself for what the PDGA has to offer yea im not a novice hell im not intermediate i can throws my putter 300 feet so therefor im an advanced or as we said today amature player!!!! JUST PLAY DISC GOLF And have a great time meeting people and most of all learn cause thats what its here for
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:43:50 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
Madmike wrote:
I talked to Dan Bayless today and really put things into perspective, my new opinion is to shut up and throw if ya cant take what ya got then dont come play we are a big family out there on T-day lets just have some fun and enjoy that we even have this every year all this is is to prepare yourself for what the PDGA has to offer yea im not a novice hell im not intermediate i can throws my putter 300 feet so therefor im an advanced or as we said today amature player!!!! JUST PLAY DISC GOLF And have a great time meeting people and most of all learn cause thats what its here for


so, with all the interest and obvious attention thats being drawn to this...... the solution is shut up and throw? Thats rediculous! Lets see if you feel tht way 3 events deep ths yr on the adv card.....
besides mike.....if in talkin to dan in an afternoon changes or alters your truth based on your exp as an intermediate playr not quite ready for adv , then ur opinion will change again and again. but now im interested in hearing wht dan has to say lol

ps....whts for dinner tnit and which disc are we eating off
agentdozzer
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:55:08 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/14/2006
Posts: 287
Mike shutting up, hahaha thx man it has been a long day i needed that.
T_Vincent
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 5:57:03 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/25/2007
Posts: 293
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Come to the meeting, Dan will be there. Just by lookinig at the discusion that has gone on here, I am sure this will be addressed. Even if we were to make some changes, they would not be implimented this year. It would take a while to iron out the details.
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 6:19:42 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
annouce I HAVE AN IRONshout
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