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INTERMEDIATE DIVISION 2010 Options
NatiBuckeye
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 6:24:51 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 8/13/2008
Posts: 328
Location: Mt lookout
DanH wrote:
To keep people from bagging in Novice, I think we need to eliminate the points series for Novice. It's an incentive to not move up after all. Another thing that would help is to overhaul the ratings system, and have a max rating for Novice. What we don't need is another division. The Advanced field is already too small, and we'd just be making it smaller.


I agree with dan

I agree the point series IS a reason to bag novice

A max rating for novice is needed as well as increased honesty in signing up, I dont think its hard to politely suggest players move up. 

I think Nov's get screwed with prizes already.  Dont take away from their prizes, if anythig find a way to make them more applicable to the Nov player.

INT division would decrease the ADV division.

And no I wont be at the club meeting unfortunately, however I think opinions expressed here should be taken into account.

b. barnett
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:52:34 PM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 36
Location: taylor mill/ louisville, ky
[quote=NatiBuckeye]
I agree with dan
I agree the point series IS a reason to bag novice
A max rating for novice is needed as well as increased honesty in signing up, I dont think its hard to politely suggest players move up. 
I think Nov's get screwed with prizes already.  Dont take away from their prizes, if anythig find a way to make them more applicable to the Nov player.
INT division would decrease the ADV division.
And no I wont be at the club meeting unfortunately, however I think opinions expressed here should be taken into account.

 
I AGREE with the statement that the novice prizes should be for helping new players so that in future years move up after practice and (instructional vids ect...).
but i dont agree that it would decrease ADV division. an INTERMEDIATE division would just help put ams  in the divisions that they need to be in. ive been playing for close to ten years, but only 3yrs in tournys.madmike says that by him throwing a putter 300 ft makes him eligible to play ADV. its more than just physical skill. for me its alot more mental skill, i choke usually in big tournys. i dont like to drop to novice but im tired of donating every ccs.  i think it would draw more money & new players to the ccss. ill make the drive for the meeting.
StorminSteve
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:42:30 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 225
Location: Land of the FREE
 ive been playing for close to ten years, but only 3yrs in tournys. i choke usually in big tournys. i dont like to drop to novice but im tired of donating every ccs.  .[/quote]

Case and point of why  "novice" class is such a hot topic . How can someone that has played for this long play in Novice ? Novice is defined as "being a begineer in any activity " . As a trully begineer last year in the CCS I played in a few Novice events,. After  hearing about how many years  some of these player have played  and seeing how strong their game is ,it was clear that I couldn't compete against them. Therefore  I moved to Gm and at least I'm having fun ! It's not as serious ! 
mikekem
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:44:03 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/16/2008
Posts: 400
Location: Lebanon
DanH wrote:
To keep people from bagging in Novice, I think we need to eliminate the points series for Novice. It's an incentive to not move up after all. Another thing that would help is to overhaul the ratings system, and have a max rating for Novice. What we don't need is another division. The Advanced field is already too small, and we'd just be making it smaller.


Could not agree more with everything that was said here. 

I can't remember how many times I've heard rec players say they'd move up if they weren't in points contention for the series.  Eliminating the rec points series would solve that by have an incentive to move up.

Lee, where are the ratings?  Heard this was coming but haven't heard anything further in awhile.  

By the way, I see a lot of quotes begining but not ending.  It's hard to read where someone's comments quote ends and the new post begins.  Don't erase the [ /quote ] bit at the end of a qoute.
agentdozzer
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:49:06 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/14/2006
Posts: 287
How is the advanced field to small it was the second largest division in every cc but rapid run last year? The idea is that ten to fifteen of the people who show up at most of the ccsand play novice play inter so that novice is for the newbie. I mean at alot of the cc the novice field is double that of most the other divisions so your splitting the novice field up so new people like storminsteve can have a true novice division, since not all of the "storminsteve" will be able to play GM.
b. barnett
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:50:34 PM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 36
Location: taylor mill/ louisville, ky
as i have found in the ccs novice is NOT a beginners class. its a comforting division for most since advanced is for open players who know they cant beat cox and wanna walk away with something.so for many who have been playing along time but dont have the skill to play open INTERMEDIATE is a good option. bthats all it is, its an option.
L_Stephens
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 9:18:16 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 7/6/2008
Posts: 437
mikekem wrote:



Lee, where are the ratings?  Heard this was coming but haven't heard anything further in awhile.  



I did all the math work...and I guess I just let the idea pass since I didn't think anyone beside me and one or two others actually cared for the subject.

Two things come to mind when we talk about putting raitings on CCS events.  One is...unless we actually use them to force people to move up...they are relatively useless except for a bragging right.....but then #2....a CCS course rating and a PDGA course rating for events that happen say even one day apart will be different...due to the simple fact that the talent pool...ratings baseline wise.....is higher in PDGA sanctioned tournaments than in local events....the different amount of prerated players.....CCS being mostly local only players so you don't have out of town unfamiliarity giving you the home boy bump...and several other issues.

ALSO...on the subject of Intermediate Division...I'm a HUGE FAN of adding it.  But let's think of it in a different way...how about we rename the Novice division as Intermediate and add a new 'Beginner', 'Recreational', '1st Timers' division...that division having no championship...$5 entry...very small payouts..that are flat across the entries...and have the Intermediate division with the same buyin as Advanced...with a flatter payout.

I know MANY people have played Novice for financial reasons even though they know they should be playing up...so we eliminate that option by having Int and Adv the same buyin...and only letting first timers play in their own division.  An individuals personal finance shouldn't directly effect the enjoyment of the game for others...or the fairness of the game.  Take away the financial option...take away the reasons for bagging...

I would personally be in favor of setting the ratings break points much lower than the PDGA divisions...since these are local tournaments on courses that most are fairly knowledgeable about.  I would put an 875 ratings point as the the line between INT and ADV...sure sounds low...but like I said earlier...the math is going to be different.

Everyone can now say I'm full of manure and go about their day,

Lee
b. barnett
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 9:32:43 PM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 36
Location: taylor mill/ louisville, ky
im with lee. for the most part.
DrewMiller(RH)
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 10:09:11 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/25/2009
Posts: 180
Location: Loveland
I think Lee's proposal is a darn good one. You'll reduce the amount of indimidation and discourage new players may feel due to the desparity in skill level between them and a financially strapped bagger. You'll also encourage the "bagger" to move up because let's face it, some people, won't play in a division they don't have a chance at winning. Give those people a new division, where they play against people of their own skill level and you'll accomplish several things: A. they will stop discouraging new players. B. They'll get better playing against competition and move eventually into advance. If you're an AM player and you want a guranteed payout, play in a PDGA tournament. If youRe an AM and you love this sport, and want to continually improve your game so you can one day win big in a PDGA event or move up, then play in the CCS. The CCS gives you a rare opportunity to play on cards with a pro and learn how to become a better player while meeting new acquaitences and even friends. Ultimately, the spirit of the CCS is to promote the sport and Lee's proposal would further strengthen the CCS ability to do so.
StorminSteve
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 10:28:48 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 225
Location: Land of the FREE
What Lee and Drew said pretty much sums it up ! It's funny how you go to the PDGA site and see members that have played Adv. at PDGA events but play Novice in the Cincy events ????? Is it fair to call them "baggers" ?
JRott
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2010 8:17:04 AM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 2/18/2008
Posts: 25
Location: Independence
Maybe Dan or Mike could put a poll on the front page. ADD INT DIVISION: YES OR NO.
The results may be interesting.
Erik
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2010 8:43:24 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
I agree with Lee as well.
Madmike
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:16:22 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/4/2009
Posts: 393
I agree as well but im still going to play advanced!!
nienaber
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2010 12:36:48 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/24/2008
Posts: 248
Location: Hamilton
Yes lee. This is why u are an advanced master.
andersab
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2010 3:41:14 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 5/22/2006
Posts: 692
Location: in the chains
I think if you make TDs have to lookup someone's rating will probably reduce your number of TDs... Most TDs don't even bother looking up club members.
nienaber
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2010 3:54:54 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/24/2008
Posts: 248
Location: Hamilton
so don't over analyze something that is only to be handled by a select few in the easiest way possible because the simplistic form has worked all these years? Brad you should be a politician!
Ben Shooner
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2010 4:37:28 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/16/2003
Posts: 248
There's no way a ratings based criteria could ever be enforced-it's hard enough to keep track of the bazillion divisions already in place.
NatiBuckeye
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2010 8:38:37 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 8/13/2008
Posts: 328
Location: Mt lookout
Madmike wrote:
I agree as well but im still going to play advanced!!


Sorry i have to do it....


Didnt you just win a rec division tourney?  Mr. 300ft putter and 400ft buzz? laugh




Madmike
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2010 8:49:14 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/4/2009
Posts: 393
NatiBuckeye wrote:


Sorry i have to do it....


Didnt you just win a rec division tourney?  Mr. 300ft putter and 400ft buzz? laugh






I have no clue what your talking about lol!!!!! Yes I did, and yes im playing rec at the banklick,lincoln ridge ice bowl as well
perica
Posted: Friday, January 29, 2010 8:03:47 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 360
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
Wow, this is a whole new level of bagging that wasn't seen just a few years ago.
Erik
Posted: Friday, January 29, 2010 8:20:59 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

andersab wrote:
I think if you make TDs have to lookup someone's rating will probably reduce your number of TDs... Most TDs don't even bother looking up club members.

 

Why force the TD to enforce this.  Make it the participants responsibility to know their rating and to sign up in the appropriate division.  If there seems to be a problem, everyone can check their rating, say something, and have the player move up…  Why make it more complicated than what it has to be.

 

nienaber wrote:
so don't over analyze something that is only to be handled by a select few in the easiest way possible because the simplistic form has worked all these years?

 

Has it worked?  That all depends on who you ask.  If you are an open player you really could not care less what happens down below…  if someone is bagging another division, that just means there is one less person that could be giving you competition in open.  If you ask any novice player who comes to their first CCS, it normally has not worked out so well.  So why not improve things that are flawed.

 

Ben Shooner wrote:
There's no way a ratings based criteria could ever be enforced-it's hard enough to keep track of the bazillion divisions already in place.

 

If it is too much to enforce on everyone, just apply the rule to those in the lead.  It is like a cop going after people speeding.  Go after the 94 in a 55 vs. the person going 57 in a 55…

 

mikekem
Posted: Friday, January 29, 2010 9:04:10 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/16/2008
Posts: 400
Location: Lebanon
Erik wrote:
Why force the TD to enforce this. Make it the participants responsibility to know their rating and to sign up in the appropriate division. If there seems to be a problem, everyone can check their rating, say something, and have the player move up… Why make it more complicated than what it has to be.


So you're expecting people who are already bagging to police themselves?

I think the simplest solution would be to adjust the points series layout like DanH suggested maybe adjust the payout as well. That would create incentive to move up instead of add another place to bag.
Erik
Posted: Friday, January 29, 2010 9:06:49 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
mikekem wrote:


So you're expecting people who are already bagging to police themselves?


No, the other people in the same division that are losing to the baggers can take it upon themselves to check. 
finnhawc
Posted: Friday, January 29, 2010 9:52:56 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 906
Location: Wyoming
BAGGING SOLUTION FOR CCS: Allow, the Players to take their Novice or Advanced points with them up to the Advanced or Open Divisions. This discourages the, "I'm going for overall series win." from preventing a mid-season adjustment to the fairer division. Knee-jerkers of the world- think outside your brains for a momment and see this is a way to facilitate less bagging. BTW, you folks will never be able to beat me so stay in the pansy divisions, please.
perica
Posted: Friday, January 29, 2010 10:13:20 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 360
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
Erik wrote:

 

Why force the TD to enforce this.  Make it the participants responsibility to know their rating and to sign up in the appropriate division.  If there seems to be a problem, everyone can check their rating, say something, and have the player move up…  Why make it more complicated than what it has to be.

 



And DQ them for it, real golf style.
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