Welcome Guest Search | Active Topics | Members

INTERMEDIATE DIVISION 2010 Options
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Friday, January 29, 2010 10:58:47 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
NatiBuckeye wrote:
I think most people are missing the point that the PDGA is the only governing body I know of that allows and supports lower skilled players to compete (baseball maybe). The sport supports growth... Why are we against that? Why not support more divisions, competition, and OVERALL money? The "shut up and throw" mentality is so close minded its silly. Suggestions to help make this club better should not be handled this harshly. If you go back and wade through all the standoffish comments alot of good could come out of this thread. If we need more TD's to make this happen and to grow this sport lets start that thread... I volunteer and lots more would aswell as long as we are helped and not shrugged off.


sry, i just wanted to make a copy of that......idea
perica
Posted: Friday, January 29, 2010 11:56:08 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 370
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
Sorry Mike, I didn't mean that there should be a new division. I meant that there will always be a bottom half of the field and people shouldn't whine because it's harder for them to cash when they move up. I never played novice, rarely cashed in advanced and just play open because I like the competition in there. I do play advanced at the Idlewild CC because I just can't hang there.

As for governing bodies that support the competition of lower skilled players, don't forget about the special olympics! knockedout
agentdozzer
Posted: Saturday, January 30, 2010 8:27:35 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/14/2006
Posts: 296
Is it just me or is one side of this debate slinging alot of mud? Not to say all of you are and alot of good points have been brought to my attention that could of made me sway to the other side. Then you get the name callers and that will only piss the other side off instead of getting them to see your way.
Phil Miller
Posted: Saturday, January 30, 2010 8:54:00 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 12/12/2003
Posts: 504
Location: Where it gets the hose again.
Show up at the club meeting, bring it up during new business and see if it can get called for a vote. If it has support it will pass, if it doesn't then we flame on. 
andersab
Posted: Saturday, January 30, 2010 10:25:37 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 5/22/2006
Posts: 692
Location: in the chains
If you guys are serious about this... I recommend having your formula worked up for ratings and all other details. You may want to print out purposals so everyone can read it too. But just remember that the GCFDA CCS is ran by the coordinator at his/her discretion. You may have to wait untill 2011 where one of you can try to become the coordinator to implement it.
STEVO
Posted: Saturday, January 30, 2010 12:30:24 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/10/2003
Posts: 228
I have a question for everybody. What is the biggest reason to add another division? Is it to increase participation in the club and at tournaments, or is it to facilitate "fairness" of competition? If the answer is to increase participation, then adding an Intermediate division is probably a good idea. If the objective is to make things more fair (i.e. reduce bagging), then in my opinion, adding a division between two others will just serve the purpose of shuffling the baggers to a different section of the leaderboard.

After all, doesn't every division (with the exception of Open, I guess) have complaints of bagging at one time or another. The first couple times someone's accused, it's usually taken as a compliment. After a few more times, the player feels the peer pressure, and will tend to move up on their own. In my 15+ years of playing, this kind of self-policing has seemed to work pretty well.

With all that said, I think DanH's idea of removing the Novice division from the points series would be a step in the right direction, and I would add a couple features to it. First, give the winner of that division at each CC a small trophy or plaque, maybe as part of, or in addition to normal prizes. Recognition of accomplishment at that level can be a great incentive for newer players to get excited about the sport, and people like LJ are right to be proud.

Second, once they do win the Novice division at a CC, make them move up immediately!! There would be no points series to hang around for, and, as I have seen and heard all last year, the top couple Novices would have cashed if not won the Advanced division most of the time anyway. So at that point, aren't they already Advanced caliber players? If you want, install a safety net-- Say, if they move up to advanced and don't cash at all the first two or three tourneys, they can opt to move back to Novice-- that is, until they win again. This system would ensure that at least 9 Novices would move up to Advanced each year!!

(Editor's Note: This opinion was rendered by an Upper-division type who DOES care about what happens in the so-called Lower divisions). idea
boss00
Posted: Saturday, January 30, 2010 8:01:54 PM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/30/2010
Posts: 10
jjeeeesssuus really guys who cares
jpaul6
Posted: Sunday, January 31, 2010 9:50:40 AM

Rank: Regular

Joined: 4/27/2009
Posts: 81
Location: Cincinnati
A viewpoint from a newbie:

I just started paying somewhat serious 2 years ago.  I've played one pdga tourney (turtlecreek) and never any ccs but I plan to this year.  I could  be beat by int. players but plan to play advanced.

I agree with Lee and Drew...except that financial reasons aren't the only reasons people sandbag.  I think some people just feel better when they're winning, even if it's against clearly lesser skilled players.   Me-I'd rather challenge myself against people I have to work hard to beat.   I would get more enjoyment out of losing a playoff by 1 shot in advanced than blowing everyone out in the rec division.

With all of the abouve opinionated bs being said, I will try to make the next meeting if my work schedule allows and I volunteer myself to help keep track of ratings scores if you need it. 

Also, what if you have a system that will move people down as well as up...could make things interesting?  chances are the upper divisions would be the only ones moving down?

John
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Sunday, January 31, 2010 1:36:53 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
STEVO wrote:
I have a question for everybody. What is the biggest reason to add another division? Is it to increase participation in the club and at tournaments, or is it to facilitate "fairness" of competition? If the answer is to increase participation, then adding an Intermediate division is probably a good idea. If the objective is to make things more fair (i.e. reduce bagging), then in my opinion, adding a division between two others will just serve the purpose of shuffling the baggers to a different section of the leaderboard.

After all, doesn't every division (with the exception of Open, I guess) have complaints of bagging at one time or another. The first couple times someone's accused, it's usually taken as a compliment. After a few more times, the player feels the peer pressure, and will tend to move up on their own. In my 15+ years of playing, this kind of self-policing has seemed to work pretty well.

With all that said, I think DanH's idea of removing the Novice division from the points series would be a step in the right direction, and I would add a couple features to it. First, give the winner of that division at each CC a small trophy or plaque, maybe as part of, or in addition to normal prizes. Recognition of accomplishment at that level can be a great incentive for newer players to get excited about the sport, and people like LJ are right to be proud.

Second, once they do win the Novice division at a CC, make them move up immediately!! There would be no points series to hang around for, and, as I have seen and heard all last year, the top couple Novices would have cashed if not won the Advanced division most of the time anyway. So at that point, aren't they already Advanced caliber players? If you want, install a safety net-- Say, if they move up to advanced and don't cash at all the first two or three tourneys, they can opt to move back to Novice-- that is, until they win again. This system would ensure that at least 9 Novices would move up to Advanced each year!!

(Editor's Note: This opinion was rendered by an Upper-division type who DOES care about what happens in the so-called Lower divisions). idea


the reason is so tht the few true rec playrs tht show up wil hav a litl side card to play on....thats it
finnhawc
Posted: Sunday, January 31, 2010 6:40:29 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 923
Location: Wyoming
Madmike wrote:
HA HA fin i can and will shoot better than you!! give me a month LOL


ROFL laugh  I look foward to it and I'll give you three years, son. You have to move up to play  against me in a tourney.  Best of Luck!

The field is fine as is - make Novice pay the same as Advanced? Nah, maybe $7 would be good.

Madmike
Posted: Sunday, January 31, 2010 11:22:25 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/4/2009
Posts: 400
I was a TD last year and intend on having a large tourney this year in november that very few people know about it will be non sanctioned but will be fun its still in the works but so far i have two sponsors that i know as of right now i have been plannin this for a few months and its already giving me doubts with everything that needs to be done but as for the CCS lets just go out have fun let the club handle their business they do alot for us and nobody takes in to consideration that all the hard work that goes into this every year its hard enough to do what they do and all for us to just have fun and learn remember dave and dan and everyone else who run these events could probably do a hundred other things on tourney days but no they get up and do what they do for "US" to get together and have a great time with friends and family!!!!!
b. barnett
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 5:19:38 AM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 36
Location: taylor mill/ louisville, ky
GStrick wrote:
Great idea Mike. The trophy for Novice is a joke and is counterintuitive to what Novice is trying to accomplish. The bottom line. If you want an Intermediate division you are scared of competition. What's your argument again, you can't win in advance. How about being part of the solution and practice. Or you could be part of the problem and stay in Novice and bag all you want. PS - the PDGA has bagging issue even with all thier divisions. Basically, it's up to the players in the sport. How about you man up and play up.


its not about man up or play up or practicing or how long youve played  this just makes you sound dumb. i truely mean this! im not scared of competion but i dont like to donate for a whole season and theres no competition if im on the last card in adv every tourny. i played adv all of 2008/ 2009 here and across the countryand ive come to terms that i am an INT player, so since your an ADV what if they took that away? would you move up to donate every round or just stop coming all together. cause for me i dont like hear the term "BAGGER". i can out drive most here in cincy, but for those i compete against and i mean top 5 in novice & bottom 5 in advanced, (we are not novice nor advance) its a good match. theres alot more mental game than most of you will agree there is. and for these 10 payers maybe more a division is needed. for those people who say move up no division is needed id like to see where you stand without your division. do you move down and "sand bag" the thing we all hate more than anything else or do you donate every other tourny? I TAKE CHALLENGES!
b. barnett
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 5:32:22 AM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 36
Location: taylor mill/ louisville, ky
perica wrote:
Sorry Mike, I didn't mean that there should be a new division. I meant that there will always be a bottom half of the field and people shouldn't whine because it's harder for them to cash when they move up. I never played novice, rarely cashed in advanced and just play open because I like the competition in there. I do play advanced at the Idlewild CC because I just can't hang there. 


if its all about competition than whats the harm most people that dont get to play as often and feel the INT division would be the best competition for them and many more.
Madmike
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 6:14:05 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/4/2009
Posts: 400
finnhawc wrote:


ROFL laugh  I look foward to it and I'll give you three years, son. You have to move up to play  against me in a tourney.  Best of Luck!

The field is fine as is - make Novice pay the same as Advanced? Nah, maybe $7 would be good.



I know its funny but hey it can and will happen and please dont call me son i hate that!!!!!
boss00
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 10:57:51 AM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/30/2010
Posts: 10
if the division you are in is too easy and you are winning a lot, move up. If not, quit *****in, and play. I don't get why this is such a hard concept for some?
Phil Miller
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 11:53:19 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 12/12/2003
Posts: 504
Location: Where it gets the hose again.
Erik
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 12:17:49 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
This is a post is from Drew Miller(RH), he is unable to post from work, but can email me...

DrewMiller(RH) wrote:
I think that my initial assumption the equitable competitiveness is the primary driver of turnout is grossly inaccurate. However, that does not mean that equitable competitiveness should not be sought. After looking at all of the suggestions I think this seemed like the easiest to implement for the amount of perceived effectiveness:

 

Novice-Eliminate the overall PT series winner for Novice, minimize the winnings (which they do)

Advanced-Rename to Intermediate-payout should be better than Novices (if possible)

 

Plus, allow novice players to take their novice points with them into the Intermediate/Advanced division if more they end up playing 60%(or something like that…) or more in advanced/intermediate for the year.

 

 

As for turnout, I think players packages are the primary driver for AM players. Looking at CCS and PDGA tournaments from last year, that crossed over CCS tournaments, it appears that AMS in fact are willing to pay more money, and drive farther, for a players pack….examine your own behavior (for all you AMs out there), and it probably fits the bill. I also think, the rating system maybe a secondary driver. Some players really like to measure their performance  (I know I do).

 

So, inherently, the CCS format will have a smaller AM turnout in comparison to PDGA events with players packs. However, inversely, after observing 15 tournament data points (c-tier), on average, the CCS pulls in a higher % of Open Players.  I think the primary reason for this is the fact that it is NOT a PDGA event and the OPEN players can still play advanced in a PDGA event if their rating is low enough, and many of them will and do. So my collective hypothesis summarized states that:

 

-The CCS will bring in overall, less participants than a PDGA event with players packs.

-The CCS promotes improvement of one’s game more so than a PDGA event due to the 1st Round card dynamics, and the incentive for Advanced players to play Open (which by the numbers is a statistical reality in comparison to the average C-tier).

 

I think the second point highlights the current problem we are all trying to express, the lack of incentive for a Novice player to step up to Advance/Intermediate. I think the proposed enhancements above, which I’m crediting to Dan H primarily (because that’s where I read it first) makes a lot of sense and does not place undue burden on the TD’s.

 

When you step back and think about it, you have to admit, that the CCS is an elegant alternative to PDGA events. PDGA events are designed to draw masses, the CCS is better designed to make better players. If you understand tournament finances with PDGA events and the CCS finances, they get to the same results in different ways, the net income per a tournament for a CCS is about the same as a PDGA event. However, it’s more efficient and streamlined without the PDGA red tape.

 

In the spirit of making better players,  I think introducing ratings to the CCS makes a lot of sense. How do you know if you are improving if you’re not measuring?  I think between Lee and/or myself, we can make this happen this year. I have a spreadsheet I used to calculate player ratings for a league season which contains the basic formula. I also have Minitab, a statistical analysis software, on my home computer. I would be more than willing to put some significant time in on this. The great thing, is the depository of past performances in the CCS. The more data points, the more accurate the ratings will be. It also helps that we have many players with PDGA ratings, and solid consistent players at that. This is also a variable when calculating the ratings, it will help normalize the CCS results with PDGA results. This should be cake. Time consuming cake, but cake. Again, I don’t think we need to do the divisions off of the ratings if we put the proposed changes or similar changes above into place. The ratings would just be yet another service to players!



 

Erik
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 1:23:03 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

Sorry I was busy remodeling my kitchen over the weekend and did not get a chance to check the boards.  Bulk responses below…

 

mikekem wrote:
I'm sorry, I was rude there. Let's all sit down to have some food and drink and discuss the ideas.

 

No offense taken.  See you at the next upcoming meeting.

 

mikekem wrote:
It isn't that much work assuming it isn't ratings based. But to me it doesn't seem like it will solve anything, just creates another place to bag. If this does happen I don't think novice or intermediate should be part of points series to discourage sticking around those divisions too long.

 

Excluding the rating system makes adding another division irrelevant.   It would result in more people bagging and simply would not many any sense.

 

GStrick wrote:
The bottom line. If you want an Intermediate division you are scared of competition. What's your argument again, you can't win in advance. How about being part of the solution and practice. Or you could be part of the problem and stay in Novice and bag all you want. PS - the PDGA has bagging issue even with all their divisions. Basically, it's up to the players in the sport. How about you man up and play up.

 

Scared?  Perhaps not everyone is as competitive as you.  I believe there are many 900 player rating people that have been playing long enough they are not considered novice.  Not everyone has the time to put into the sport to become advanced or open.

 

slg6218 wrote:
Not everyone who plays novice is new, or lacks the desire to get better.  I have been playing for 2 years and just don't have the time to practice a lot.

 

Exactly…

 

perica wrote:


Some might say that those people need to put in their dues and shouldn't expect to cash the first time that they move up to advanced.  I would certainly hope that the advanced players that move up to open wouldn't expect to cash as soon as they get out there with the big dogs.

 

True, but new players should not have to “pay their dues” to play against baggers.

 

mikekem wrote:
Perica has a good point here. There is a greater need for a division between Advanced and Pro. The amount of skill between a skilled Advanced player and a seasoned Open player is way bigger than the skill most Novice players have compared to those that play in the Advanced division. Can we expect this argument in 3 years or so when you're too good for advanced but still don't cash in Pro?

 

Put a new division wherever you desire.  Just using ratings to monitor it.

 

andersab wrote:
If you guys are serious about this... I recommend having your formula worked up for ratings and all other details. You may want to print out purposals so everyone can read it too. But just remember that the GCFDA CCS is ran by the coordinator at his/her discretion. You may have to wait untill 2011 where one of you can try to become the coordinator to implement it.
Has the coordinator been appointed yet?

 

STEVO wrote:
I have a question for everybody. What is the biggest reason to add another division? Is it to increase participation in the club and at tournaments, or is it to facilitate "fairness" of competition? If the answer is to increase participation, then adding an Intermediate division is probably a good idea. If the objective is to make things more fair (i.e. reduce bagging), then in my opinion, adding a division between two others will just serve the purpose of shuffling the baggers to a different section of the leaderboard.

(Editor's Note: This opinion was rendered by an Upper-division type who DOES care about what happens in the so-called Lower divisions). idea

 

Thanks for looking out for the less skilled players.



Phil Miller wrote:


You would beat off a dead hourse wouldn't you...
Phil Miller
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 2:26:06 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 12/12/2003
Posts: 504
Location: Where it gets the hose again.
Erik wrote:

 You would beat off a dead hourse wouldn't you...



That's the secret to getting out of Novice and Advanced.

DG is not like baseball where you can use Performace Enhacing Drugs, you just need to beat off a dead horse.

It also works for swimmers:



boss00
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 2:37:20 PM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/30/2010
Posts: 10
Erik
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 2:57:58 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

Phil Miller wrote:


That's the secret to getting out of Novice and Advanced.

DG is not like baseball where you can use Performace Enhacing Drugs, you just need to beat off a dead horse.

It also works for swimmers:

 

But the real secret to getting out of Advanced and Novice is joining Intermediate…  No Performance Enhancing Drugs or Dead Cow’s needed…

Swimmers?  what does that have to do with anything?

T_Vincent
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 3:00:02 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 10/25/2007
Posts: 310
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Erik, you asked if a coordinator has been been appointed yet. Dave Marlow decided to do the job since he is at all of the events, and he is the vender, so it ties in quite well. I feel that the CCS was a great success last year, and have no problem with him keeping the job. I do not feel that baggers are his responsibility.
I am sure that this topic will be discussed at length during the meeting. The past few years, the only heated discusion reguarding the CCS has been about what courses to use. So bringing up this topic is not that bad of an idea. If we have the size crowd that this thread is alluding to, the room we reserved may not be big enough, a good thing in my opinion.
Phil Miller
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 3:11:55 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 12/12/2003
Posts: 504
Location: Where it gets the hose again.
Erik wrote:



Swimmers?  what does that have to do with anything?



Beating a dead horse gave Michael Phelps super powers:

Erik
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 3:58:25 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

T_Vincent wrote:
Erik, you asked if a coordinator has been been appointed yet. Dave Marlow decided to do the job since he is at all of the events, and he is the vender, so it ties in quite well. I feel that the CCS was a great success last year, and have no problem with him keeping the job. I do not feel that baggers are his responsibility. I am sure that this topic will be discussed at length during the meeting. The past few years, the only heated discusion reguarding the CCS has been about what courses to use. So bringing up this topic is not that bad of an idea. If we have the size crowd that this thread is alluding to, the room we reserved may not be big enough, a good thing in my opinion.

 

Tony, I know it is not going to come down to Dave policing people to play in the right division.  I was hoping this aspect could be governed by the community.  Not monitoring every player specifically, but if there is an obvious problem, then look at the data provided by the community as needed.  We can discuss this further at the club meeting.



Phil Miller wrote:


Beating a dead horse gave Michael Phelps super powers:



Ah, lazers…  it all makes sense now…  only thing missing is sharks with freaking laser beams!

NatiBuckeye
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 8:34:24 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 8/13/2008
Posts: 348
Location: Mt lookout
has anyone considerd starting a second thread to develop a proper proposal.... all this talk on here will get us nowhere if nothing is developed. I believe it also is a good way for people who cannot make the meeting to be able to voice their opinion.

Im also for a voting thread. I would post them myself however I dont want this topic to get spread all over the boards or be placed in improper sections.
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS

YAFPro Theme Created by Jaben Cargman (Tiny Gecko)
Yet Another Forum.net version 1.9.1.7 running under DotNetNuke.
Copyright © 2003-2006 Yet Another Forum.net. All rights reserved.