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INTERMEDIATE DIVISION 2010 Options
Madmike
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 8:49:59 PM

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Joined: 2/4/2009
Posts: 400
It is going to be a heated debate!!!!!! Only because everyone feels that it would just be right to add the division. I mean when it does not happen and less people come to the CCS series then what will be said? As of right now I don't care if its added or not I am actually tired of reading it as is everyone else. I just want to play in the end its all that matters. Yes less payouts because less people that participate but what division will that hurt the most?
mikekem
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 8:50:57 PM

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Joined: 2/16/2008
Posts: 400
Location: Lebanon
Erik wrote:
Put a new division wherever you desire. Just using ratings to monitor it.


I don't wish to add any divisions, I was merely pointing out that there is probably a greater need for a division between Advanced and Pro. I anticipate that the next request will be for the division I just brought up. Where does the line stop?
mikekem
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 8:51:27 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/16/2008
Posts: 400
Location: Lebanon
I forgot: Rable! Rable, Rable, Rable!
Madmike
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2010 9:04:00 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/4/2009
Posts: 400
get em mikey!! LOL So it would be like freds semi pro division??? Im not tryin to get anything started by that post mike about the between open and advanced wouldnt that do the same as would addin intermediate i mean give them more experienced players more chances to cashand win ?? That to me just seems all that the GCFDA is only here to benefit the open players just saying you know if that was the case then it then would only be right to add the intermediate division. This who debate thing is the same as for the reasons why i dont get involved with the government cause its all politics and all meant to benefit the rich ( or for this instance OPEN divisions) and screw the rest of the people who put in just as much practice and if I may play twice as hard to make something of what they have!!!!
Phil Miller
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 7:19:45 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 12/12/2003
Posts: 503
Location: Where it gets the hose again.
Madmike wrote:
get em mikey!! LOL So it would be like freds semi pro division??? Im not tryin to get anything started by that post mike about the between open and advanced wouldnt that do the same as would addin intermediate i mean give them more experienced players more chances to cashand win ?? That to me just seems all that the GCFDA is only here to benefit the open players just saying you know if that was the case then it then would only be right to add the intermediate division. This who debate thing is the same as for the reasons why i dont get involved with the government cause its all politics and all meant to benefit the rich ( or for this instance OPEN divisions) and screw the rest of the people who put in just as much practice and if I may play twice as hard to make something of what they have!!!!


How the hell does this benefit Open? Open fields are typically smaller (because people don't move up and it costs $20). The competition is more stiff because we have sponsored guys like Cox and Blakely who live here and play quite a few tournaments and it's harder for guys who don't play all the time to cash or win. Do you hear us whining about another division? I maybe get to play once a week if I'm lucky yet I still play Open. If you read Andrew Miller's post he totally gets the point that MOST of you are missing. The CCS encourages you to become a better player. I think the whole problem is with the verbage. Advanced is Intermediate. The definition of Intermediate is: Occuring between 2 extremes, or in the middle of a range, which is right where Advanced falls.
L_Stephens
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 7:32:32 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 7/6/2008
Posts: 437
Divisional breaks are all about symantics...it doesn't matter what you call them...there needs to be three Am divisions...then people can sort out where their game belongs and sign up accordingly...only hitch is that the bottom division needs to be seriously regulated to protect the new player...the difference between the middle and top division we can self police with the usual 'BAGGER!' comments. I say we rename them the 'New to the Game Division' or NGD....the 'I can Drive but can't Putt'...or Drive No Putt...DNP division....then the "I can Drive AND Putt...but not consistent enough to play Open Division...or the I'm Afraid Division...IAD.

Last year I played Advanced Masters partly because it was inline with the skill level needed for an Intermediate Division and I didn't feel like donating to Advanced...however as the year went on I found I would have done fairly well in Advanced anyway....so...if an Intermediate Division was brought in...and the fact that many of us Advanced Masters have moved to Open Masters anyway...there MAY not be a need for an Advanced Masters division anymore.

So...it's all about the words we use to describe the divisions...maybe we don't need to add anything...just reshuffle...protecting the new people from the baggers.
Erik
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 9:19:43 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

mikekem wrote:
I don't wish to add any divisions, I was merely pointing out that there is probably a greater need for a division between Advanced and Pro. I anticipate that the next request will be for the division I just brought up. Where does the line stop?

 

I am only looking for player ratings.  You can call any division intermediate after ratings are intraduced.

 

Phil Miller wrote:
If you read Andrew Miller's post he totally gets the point that MOST of you are missing. The CCS encourages you to become a better player. I think the whole problem is with the verbiage.

 

Andrew Miller also has no problem with playing doubles and other cash donating activities in disc golf with the intention on becoming a better player.  When people say:

 

perica wrote:
those people need to put in their dues and shouldn't expect to cash the first time that they move up to advanced

 

Then why would you move up?  Not everyone is competition driven to “donate” and put in their dues”… This is why a rating system needs to be implemented.

 

NatiBuckeye wrote:
I think most people are missing the point that the PDGA is the only governing body I know of that allows and supports lower skilled players to compete (baseball maybe). The sport supports growth... Why are we against that? Why not support more divisions, competition, and OVERALL money? The "shut up and throw" mentality is so close minded its silly. Suggestions to help make this club better should not be handled this harshly. If you go back and wade through all the standoffish comments alot of good could come out of this thread. If we need more TD's to make this happen and to grow this sport lets start that thread... I volunteer and lots more would aswell as long as we are helped and not shrugged off.

 

+1 on this post!

 

L_Stephens wrote:
Divisional breaks are all about symantics...it doesn't matter what you call them...there needs to be three Am divisions...then people can sort out where their game belongs and sign up accordingly...only hitch is that the bottom division needs to be seriously regulated to protect the new player...the difference between the middle and top division we can self police with the usual 'BAGGER!' comments. I say we rename them the 'New to the Game Division' or NGD....the 'I can Drive but can't Putt'...or Drive No Putt...DNP division....then the "I can Drive AND Putt...but not consistent enough to play Open Division...or the I'm Afraid Division...IAD.

 

Well said!  So the divisions would look like:

 

Novice - the 'New to the Game Division' – not in the series and small rewards geared for new players. (This will be a very small division as it is only used for new players.)

 

Intermediate - the 'I can Drive but can't Putt'...or Drive No Putt...DNP division. This is mostly be made up of the old novice group.

 

Advanced - the "I can Drive AND Putt...but not consistent enough to play Open Division. This is mostly be made up of the old Advanced group with a few of the novice baggers.

 

Open - "I can Drive AND Putt consistently”

In the end, little chance to the payout structure as the novice group will be very small.

Phil Miller
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 10:15:30 AM

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Joined: 12/12/2003
Posts: 503
Location: Where it gets the hose again.
Erik wrote:

 

Well said!  So the divisions would look like:

 

Novice - the 'New to the Game Division' – not in the series and small rewards geared for new players. (This will be a very small division as it is only used for new players.)

 

Intermediate - the 'I can Drive but can't Putt'...or Drive No Putt...DNP division. This is mostly be made up of the old novice group.

 

Advanced - the "I can Drive AND Putt...but not consistent enough to play Open Division. This is mostly be made up of the old Advanced group with a few of the novice baggers.

 

Open - "I can Drive AND Putt consistently”

In the end, little chance to the payout structure as the novice group will be very small.



We should probably go ahead and stop keeping score. If everyone can't win, what's the point? 

While we're at it we should probably change the series name to the Course Don't Challenge Series

If the issue is with baggers deal with the baggers. I don't think adding a divsion is going to eliminate bagging.
boss00
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 10:24:54 AM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/30/2010
Posts: 10
ya, i gotta agree with phil. i just don't see what the point of all this is. it doesn't make any sense at all to me. Either you are good enough for the advanced division or you are not good enough, there is not that big of a difference in skill level there. sometimes the best int score is better than the top adv score anyways. I think you guys are freaking out about something that just doesn't matter... although it is entertaining to get on this thread, it serves no other utility.
Erik
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 11:26:15 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

Phil Miller wrote:


We should probably go ahead and stop keeping score. If everyone can't win, what's the point? 

While we're at it we should probably change the series name to the Course Don't Challenge Series

If the issue is with baggers deal with the baggers. I don't think adding a division is going to eliminate bagging.

 

Phil, if we argued your way, why not call it the Course Challenge Series Open.  These events should be inviting for all skill levels.  Not just Advanced and Open players.

 

How many truly “novice people” do we have at these events?  Maybe 2-4?  Maybe even none at some events?

 

Basically we would have the 3 different groups

 

Intermediate (nearly everyone that used to play in novice). 

Advanced

Open

 

Have these Intermediate and Advanced regulated by player ratings.

 

The same setup as before, but uses player ratings to control the bagging.

 

boss00 wrote:
sometimes the best int score is better than the top adv score anyways.

 

Yes, this sometimes happens, but it becomes a problem if the best int score is always the same or better than the best in advanced.  This is why player ratings would be a good way to control this.

Sc0rch3d
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 11:55:29 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
boss00 wrote:
ya, i gotta agree with phil. i just don't see what the point of all this is. it doesn't make any sense at all to me. Either you are good enough for the advanced division or you are not good enough, there is not that big of a difference in skill level there. sometimes the best int score is better than the top adv score anyways. I think you guys are freaking out about something that just doesn't matter... although it is entertaining to get on this thread, it serves no other utility.


good question, whats the point?

what we are asking for is an intermediate division because the name intermediate  validates the talent within the largest card in our club, which is currently and (problematically) called novice. listen closely, Noone that should move up this yr is affraid to move up to advanced, im not. The problem is tht there are many decent plyrs that arent advanced yet. The solution is we call them intermediate and allow the couple of locals or true newbies to sign on a rec side card not recognized in the yr total,  PROBLEM SOLVED. Nothing changes....there isnt an extra division. the ccs is a 9 month long multi leg series with time and expenses. how many newbies or as we call em , REC PLYRS will begin and end with us anyway. Its rediculous how this has been twisted. Its simple, again and again, it is simple.... ....our novice card is super deep and more talented than what most people would consider a novice plyr!!! This is where all the bagger tlk comes from. Just change the dang name to intermediate and allow some of these people who wrk hard on their games but struggle have a card that validates the truth. THAT THEY ARE INTERMEDIATE PLYRS! When a TRUE newbie OR REC PLYR shows if he wants to sign on a litl side card with 1 or 3 people at any given event, LET THEM. Then the rec plyr,  no matter where our club goes... will have an honest shake. So, were not creating a new division. Were renaming novice INTERMEDIATE to reflect truth in our clubs lower ranking division. CAN NOONE SEE CLEARLY THAT IT JUST ISNT A BUNCH OF NOVICES, CAN NOONE SEE CLEARLY THAT THEY WOULD GETN EATIN ALIVE IN ADVANCED....the very reason to call it intermediate is so that we give them a place to continue improving without listening to every NOVICE OR rec plyr complain when were out at dif locations about bagging. THAT IS THE ONLY POINT!

Its not for us, its to get rid of the bagger tlk and make room for somone who just wants to play rec. It would be easier to do this than all the mumbling weve done on here thts for sure. Whats funny, this would really work
andersab
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 12:16:14 PM

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Posts: 692
Location: in the chains
Sc0rch3d wrote:

what we are asking for is an intermediate division because the name intermediate  validates the talent within the largest card in our club, which is currently and (problematically) called novice.


I think that if you all play on the same card it may make for a long day and delays behind you.
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 12:49:16 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
andersab wrote:


I think that if you all play on the same card it may make for a long day and delays behind you.


lol, good point brad. but it isnt yal....im moving to advanced
andersab
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 12:50:36 PM

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Posts: 692
Location: in the chains
Sc0rch3d wrote:


lol, good point brad. but it isnt yal....im moving to advanced


It would be a painful day for all...
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 12:53:36 PM

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Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
wouldnt it be the same people, same rythym....better defined?
Erik
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 1:02:11 PM

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Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
Sc0rch3d wrote:
wouldnt it be the same people, same rythym....better defined?


Yes, I completely agree with what you said above...  Andersab is just playing on your words when you said:

Sc0rch3d wrote:
what we are asking for is an intermediate division because the name intermediate  validates the talent within the largest card in our club, which is currently and (problematically) called novice.
2Timer
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 1:02:14 PM
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Joined: 3/30/2006
Posts: 372
Location: Ameila, Oh
My thing is it all depends on what your ultimate goal is. Mine was to be the best player I could be so I wanted to play against better players. Is winning a division that you out class really that fun? I would rather be in a battle against someone better than myself and try to elevate my game. Too many poeple need to win.....it waters down the game.
Erik
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 1:17:18 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
2Timer wrote:
Is winning a division that you out class really that fun?


Apparently it is for a lot of baggers out there…

2Timer wrote:
My thing is it all depends on what your ultimate goal is. Mine was to be the best player I could be so I wanted to play against better players. I would rather be in a battle against someone better than myself and try to elevate my game. Too many people need to win.....it waters down the game.


It does come down to what your goals are…

1) People who want to compete. They want a far chance to play against people with similar skill levels.
2) People who want to learn. They don’t mind losing for the opportunity to watch and play against better people.
3) People who need to win. They are either are good enough to win at open or bag lower levels so they can win.

A good CCS will maximize participation of all three of these groups to have the largest turnouts. Using a rating system will allow people who want to compete against similar skill sets to do so. It will also allow people who want to learn to play up a division if needed. Finally the people who need to win can play open. The only thing this would remove are the people who need to win and will bag to do so…

So all in all a Win Win for the sport!
NEngle
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 1:23:14 PM

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Joined: 11/18/2003
Posts: 944
Location: Fairfield, OH
Lawrence is close on this one. Change the name of Advanced. Change it (back) to Amateur. Then you have Novice & Amateur. Who doesn't fall into one of those categories? Drop the point series for Novice. We haven't always awarded Novices points and it seems the series prevents people from moving on (not up) to a more experienced division.

I'm grateful for the choices we have in this area. On any given weekend you can find a tournament that suits your preferences. We have a great point series, just as many PDGA tournaments, and several other cool & interesting events going on within a short drive. Id hate to see all these tournaments homogenized.

Ratings don't prevent bagging. The rating system is a fun tool to measure your own growth, but it's mostly inaccurate. Especially for novice to intermediate type players. These players generally improve faster than their ratings do. The ratings breaks the PDGA has set are arbitrary. 935 your advanced, 900 your intermediate. You could set those numbers anywhere & it wouldn't matter. The top 3-5 players in any am division will always be called baggers.

Adding another division won't stop bagging either. More divisions = more baggers. The top 3-5 players in any am division will always be called baggers.
chief32
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 1:28:19 PM
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Posts: 110
Location: Lebanon
good entertainment :)
Phil Miller
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 1:39:29 PM

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Joined: 12/12/2003
Posts: 503
Location: Where it gets the hose again.
NEngle wrote:
Lawrence is close on this one. Change the name of Advanced. Change it (back) to Amateur. Then you have Novice & Amateur. Who doesn't fall into one of those categories? Drop the point series for Novice. We haven't always awarded Novices points and it seems the series prevents people from moving on (not up) to a more experienced division. I'm grateful for the choices we have in this area. On any given weekend you can find a tournament that suits your preferences. We have a great point series, just as many PDGA tournaments, and several other cool & interesting events going on within a short drive. Id hate to see all these tournaments homogenized. Ratings don't prevent bagging. The rating system is a fun tool to measure your own growth, but it's mostly inaccurate. Especially for novice to intermediate type players. These players generally improve faster than their ratings do. The ratings breaks the PDGA has set are arbitrary. 935 your advanced, 900 your intermediate. You could set those numbers anywhere & it wouldn't matter. The top 3-5 players in any am division will always be called baggers. Adding another division won't stop bagging either. More divisions = more baggers. The top 3-5 players in any am division will always be called baggers.


Exactly Nick.
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 1:44:03 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
I was 41 yrs old last yr when i started playing disc golf.....i placed 11th at harbin(our 1st ccs), 6th at the 2nd event and then went on to bring the trophy home. I threw 3 arms off wrkin on my drive and it turned out i had a knack for the game. Just makin sure noone is mixing me up with the bagger talk again....its all i heard. But i must admitt, my goal is to be called a bagger on the advanced card this yr lol. we will see if im so lucky
Phil Miller
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 3:27:46 PM

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Joined: 12/12/2003
Posts: 503
Location: Where it gets the hose again.
Sc0rch3d wrote:
I was 41 yrs old last yr when i started playing disc golf.....i placed 11th at harbin(our 1st ccs), 6th at the 2nd event and then went on to bring the trophy home. I threw 3 arms off wrkin on my drive and it turned out i had a knack for the game. Just makin sure noone is mixing me up with the bagger talk again....its all i heard. But i must admitt, my goal is to be called a bagger on the advanced card this yr lol. we will see if im so lucky


Point is, you worked on your game.
perica
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 4:00:37 PM

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Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
Phil Miller wrote:


Let's stroke it baby!
NEngle
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 5:33:39 PM

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Joined: 11/18/2003
Posts: 944
Location: Fairfield, OH

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