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INTERMEDIATE DIVISION 2010 Options
skeezer1
Posted: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 9:03:13 PM
Rank: Regular

Joined: 2/17/2008
Posts: 51
Location: God's Country
Here is 2 cents...
Here is how it is fixed. This is for all NON CASH DIVISIONS!
1. Play what ever Division you choose.
2. If you win, place, or show.... in 3 tournaments in 1 Division.... then you are atuomaticly moved up to the next Division (unless you are in the highest level).
3. You can move down only when you do not finish in the top 1/3 of your current Division in 3 Tournament in a row. (Then you can move down to the next level of competition.)
4. All cash Divisions are dased on pdga rules. These rules only apply to NON CASH Divisions.

NON CASH DIVISIONS
A. players should be allowed to play 1 round with a person from a higher Division. This is for learning.
B. Cost should be no more than $5.00 + membership fee.
C. Pay Out should be 1st, 2nd, & 3rd Only. (The rules above will keep players from bagging. The pay out will promote players to move up through the Ranks. And those having trouble improving, will not be out an arm or a leg; but will be given a chance to win because players are forced to up due to their performance.)
As for pay outs:
You earn dollar "POINTS" in which you can save to purchase disc golf apparel.
It will work.
Marc
T_Vincent
Posted: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 10:43:33 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 10/25/2007
Posts: 305
Location: Cincinnati, OH
skeezer1, I have a problem with point 3. I came in second in advanced for the series. My last four finishes were 7th out of 16,10th out of 22,12th out of 17 & 7th out of 13. So I could move down? I am sure there are others that would be in the same boat. I am also not a fan of forcing someone to a higher level.

By the number of people in favor of the new division, it looks like we may need to add one. Instead of arguing about it here on this forum, lets put together a number of well thought out solutions that we can discuss on Monday. Not to mention, the more complex the idea, the longer it will take to implement. It most likely would not be started this year.

I am not against this idea, but with only a month before the first CC, and no other meetings to discuss the details, making it work for this year would be hard.
Erik
Posted: Thursday, February 04, 2010 10:53:51 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

 

andersab wrote:
I think everyone is missing one major point... Dave Marlow is the CCS Coordinator. I don't know where he is with everything being planned, but its his decision!!! He's the one that has to get the different colors of board cards, figure out the payout during lunch of each tournament, setup the TD book for everyone to use, etc. This may/may not be a great idea but it should be his decision. If he says that he has most stuff done, then maybe next year... At least put some type of formal proposal together to be reviewed. He doesn't read the board hardly at all. And if you are going to try to get a vote, don't you think that proposal will help people (and Dave) make better decisions? All I know right now is someone(s) wants an Intermediate division, is it required for someone to create new ratings? Who will govern, etc? This argument has gone around and around, lets see something formal from those of you that are wanting this. If you go to the meeting with something organized, its been my experience that things go a little more smoothly.


Rome was not built in a day.  If a rating system is not implemented this year, so be it...   This is just brainstorming on possible improvements.  Mainly bagging.

 

boss00 wrote:
is this not going a little bit overboard?lol with all the data calculations


We have the data, why not use it to moderate the bagging that goes on.

mikekem
Posted: Thursday, February 04, 2010 7:48:54 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/16/2008
Posts: 400
Location: Lebanon
Erik what do you mean use the data to moderate bagging? TD's are not going to go through a list of players ratings to determine who can play where. The best you're going to be able to do is set guidelines and rely on the community to pressure upward movement.

This point has been raised more than once though, please describe your system and how to enforce it. Having TD's do it isn't an option in my opinion.
boss00
Posted: Thursday, February 04, 2010 10:13:05 PM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/30/2010
Posts: 10
Erik wrote:

 



We have the data, why not use it to moderate the bagging that goes on.



i still don't understand why you are so concerned with what others are doing, and whether they are "bagging" or not. If someone is playing down a division, why would you care? This stuff is supposed to be fun it is not a sanctioned series. If someone is playing down in a division they shouldn't be in then what's the worse that is going to happen? they win? you lose? what are you worried about?
DrewMiller(RH)
Posted: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:16:15 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/25/2009
Posts: 201
Location: Loveland
Well, I found a new place to attach my equalizers.....
skeezer1
Posted: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:24:30 PM
Rank: Regular

Joined: 2/17/2008
Posts: 51
Location: God's Country
I do not wish to fight you! (what movie was that from?) The picture made me think of it.
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Friday, February 05, 2010 2:20:47 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
again....ya just call our current novice card intermediate (w points series) BECAUSE THEY ARE INTERMEDIATE AND DESERVE A POINTS SERIES.....allow the 2 OR 3 tht wanna sign on a rec card(no points series) to do so......everything else stays exactly the same...., done!  this gives an honest crack for the true newbie, but one 1st place win on a rec card earns em a gcfda membership......ya cant win 2 times on a rec card EVER.......(YOU CAN "POINTS WISE" FOR THE FUN .....BUT NOT FOR SPLITTING THE CASH OR THE MEMBERSHIP), but u can play rec anytime u want. Do you think a newbie  who signs rec and wins once will move onto intermediate to complain about baggers?....they will if they meet them in march on a novice card though!
AdamJ
Posted: Friday, February 05, 2010 7:50:44 AM

Rank: Expert

Joined: 5/22/2005
Posts: 1,229
Location: Nati
Sand bagging has been a argument in disc golf for years. If you guys get bored read up on it in the discussion board on the PDGA site.

2 cents here: You will always have some sort of bagging, deal with it, and it actually helps promote improvement. Those that want it bad enough will try hard enough. Those that don't simply complain. Let's all try to stop making excuses and try making solutions, starting with ourselves.
ciyas at the meeting...
Erik
Posted: Friday, February 05, 2010 9:06:40 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

mikekem wrote:
Erik what do you mean use the data to moderate bagging? TD's are not going to go through a list of players ratings to determine who can play where. The best you're going to be able to do is set guidelines and rely on the community to pressure upward movement. This point has been raised more than once though, please describe your system and how to enforce it. Having TD's do it isn't an option in my opinion.

 

Mike,

 

Guidelines could be set for the community to enforce and bring up to a TD if a player has outperformed his division. Allow the player who is out performing their division to move up to compete with people of similar abilities and carry their points with them.

 

I think Drew Miller (RH) explained this the best:

 

DrewMiller(RH) wrote:
FYI-I calculated player ratings for 180 rounds from league data that I have. Given, we don't have any player with a PDGA rating hire than 950 playing leagues, the ratings are superficially inflated. The correction factor is unknown since so few of the players in league play PDGA tournaments and have a current rating (won't be an issue). Of the data, the interquartile ranges follow:

Q1-850

Med-900

Q3-930

 

These seemed like logical placements for division rating requirements:

Novice Less than 850

Int 850-900

Adv 900-930

Open-930 and above

 

I then calculated the median for each player, placed them in the appropriate division, and then using a quick V look up, updated my data set tagging each round with the division that player would be in.

 

Then, running a moods median(Anova for nonparametric data, non normal) I validated the placement of the division ratings when the test clearly displayed statistical difference between all 4 groups.

 

I can perform the same analysis with last years CCS scores, cross referencing rating history from the PDGA. It should be much more accurate given the CCS is a larger sample size, and has current PDGA ratings from across all divisions....

 

One thing I noticed in the league scores was the difference in standard deviation in the divisions:

N was 80

I was 40

A was 33

O was 30

 

I expect the difference between O and A in the CCS to be more pronounced due to Dave Cox, Vandemark, and those other super consistent open players. Looks like I know what I'm doing with my Sunday morning.....and evening, :-)

 

I'll have the SSA for the courses too  

 

mikekem wrote:
SSA is the problem with the current system's ratings. Too often CCS have extra holes added or changed thus changing the round ratings.

 

DrewMiller(RH) wrote:
PDGA events have temp holes all the time and still calculate the ratings, and they calculate the ratings by calculating the SSA of the observations in a single round. You have over 50 observations or more (usually a 100 or more).  The base rule for statistical observation is N=25 or N=30.  50-100 is a bonus only makes it more significant

 

Drew Miller (RH) and I have the details of this system at the club meeting on Monday.

 

boss00 wrote:
i still don't understand why you are so concerned with what others are doing, and whether they are "bagging" or not. If someone is playing down a division, why would you care? This stuff is supposed to be fun it is not a sanctioned series. If someone is playing down in a division they shouldn't be in then what's the worse that is going to happen? they win? you lose? what are you worried about?
You are right, these are supposed to be a fun. Who really likes baggers and considers the events more fun with them? In the end, the novice division is huge and needs another division. People are afraid that by adding another AM division (intermediate), more bagging will occur. To minimize the bagging player ratings can be used.

finnhawc
Posted: Friday, February 05, 2010 12:19:49 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 915
Location: Wyoming
AdamJ wrote:
Sand bagging has been a argument in disc golf for years. If you guys get bored read up on it in the discussion board on the PDGA site. 2 cents here: You will always have some sort of bagging, deal with it, and it actually helps promote improvement. Those that want it bad enough will try hard enough. Those that don't simply complain. Let's all try to stop making excuses and try making solutions, starting with ourselves. ciyas at the meeting...


EACTLY!
finnhawc
Posted: Friday, February 05, 2010 12:20:36 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 915
Location: Wyoming
AdamJ wrote:
Sand bagging has been a argument in disc golf for years. If you guys get bored read up on it in the discussion board on the PDGA site. 2 cents here: You will always have some sort of bagging, deal with it, and it actually helps promote improvement. Those that want it bad enough will try hard enough. Those that don't simply complain. Let's all try to stop making excuses and try making solutions, starting with ourselves. ciyas at the meeting...


EXACTLY!
andersab
Posted: Friday, February 05, 2010 2:26:17 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 5/22/2006
Posts: 692
Location: in the chains
Erik wrote:

You are right, these are supposed to be a fun. Who really likes baggers and considers the events more fun with them? In the end, the novice division is huge and needs another division. People are afraid that by adding another AM division (intermediate), more bagging will occur. To minimize the bagging player ratings can be used.



I love baggers, events are more fun because when they win you can yell "BAGGER"!
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Friday, February 05, 2010 2:31:33 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
andersab wrote:


I love baggers, events are more fun because when they win you can yell "BAGGER"!


lol, you're ate up brad
Phil Miller
Posted: Friday, February 05, 2010 3:10:08 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 12/12/2003
Posts: 499
Location: Where it gets the hose again.
I prefer to yell "douchebagger".
boss00
Posted: Friday, February 05, 2010 4:29:46 PM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/30/2010
Posts: 10
Erik, you seem to be obsessed with this topic, so here's a question for you:

There are two goals here - to increase participation in these events (particularly among newbies/infrequent participants) and to eliminate bagging.

To address the latter, you propose complicating these events with another division, a ratings system, and some sort of policing of who plays in each division.

Sounds to me like your solution for one of the two goals will negatively impact the other. 

If someone new to the series shows up and bags, your rating system won't fix it.  If one of the regulars shows up and tries to bag, everyone will know it with or without a ratings system.

The system is fine as is - get over it and move on.
soundmind
Posted: Friday, February 05, 2010 9:55:55 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 6/26/2007
Posts: 201
chit im playing the ice bowl in the morn.
novice baby, plastic 4 life!!!!!!!!!!
perica
Posted: Saturday, February 06, 2010 10:30:47 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 370
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
Phil Miller wrote:
I prefer to yell "douchebagger".


Don't forget teabagger!
Erik
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 9:32:02 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

boss00 wrote:
Erik, you seem to be obsessed with this topic, so here's a question for you:
I actually am still looking for a question here...  Most questions are indicated by a "?"  Nowhere in your post is there a single question...
boss00 wrote:
There are two goals here - to increase participation in these events (particularly among newbies/infrequent participants) and to eliminate bagging.

 

I was mainly interested in ratings to control the bagging.  Other people are asking for an intermediate and I agree with them.

boss00 wrote:
To address the latter, you propose complicating these events with another division, a ratings system, and some sort of policing of who plays in each division.

Sounds to me like your solution for one of the two goals will negatively impact the other.
 Sorry if you feel viewpoints negatively impact the sport.  I personally feel comments like these are far more negative than anything I have said:

 

boss00 wrote:
"quit b!tchin, and play"

 

 

Gstrick wrote:
"If you don't like that division, move up. And again, if you can't compete in that division, maybe find a new sport or run your own tournaments."

 

 

Ben Shooner wrote:
"your feelings shouldn't be hurt if you don't play well enough to cash."

 

 

Perica wrote:
"As for governing bodies that support the competition of lower skilled players, don't forget about the special Olympics!”

boss00
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 9:58:43 AM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/30/2010
Posts: 10
Viewpoints negatively impact the sport? What? Where in my post does it say anything about that?lol What I said was, if you actually read it, that your ratings system idea will discourage people (especially newer players) from wanting to participate. One of the great things about the CCS is how relaxed and comfortable it is, as opposed to more serious PDGA sanctioned events. People can show up, play on a mixed card, and find out what its like to compete and participate without having to worry about the more serious structure which supports higher level tournaments. Don't ruin the CCS by trying to model it after the PDGA with ratings and rules that designate who can play where and who can do what. Do you want us to have to all wear collared shirts too? No beer, or casual conversation or anything else? I enjoy the CCS for all of these things and its a nice contrast to the more serious sanctioned tournaments that the PDGA offers. I wish you could understand that.
Erik
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 9:58:53 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

andersab wrote:


boss00 is talking about the sport, not about personal feelings...


Actually, Boss00 said:

 

boss00 wrote:
Sounds to me like your solution for one of the two goals will negatively impact the other.

 

Key words there are “Sounds to me like”.  Similar things to sub in for those words would be:

 

“In my opinion, your solution for one of the two goals will negatively impact the other”

“I feel, your solution for one of the two goals will negatively impact the other”

 

Therefore, you can “feel” or have feeling” on any matter… 

 

If this still doesn’t make since, let me put this is Boss00’s terms.

 

Sorry if it “sounds like” my viewpoints negatively impact the sport.  “Sounds like” these comments are far more negative than anything I have said:

Erik
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 10:22:48 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
Boss, actually between all the emails, PM’s and responses from newer players, most would love to have the rating systems implemented, as well as an intermediate division. I really doubt it will discourage people (especially new players!) from wanting to participate. If anything it will INCROURAGE more new people to participate. I agree about the CCS being more relaxed and laid back. People are less likely to call foot faults, etc. The mixed card thing is great too. I agree it is a nice contrast to a PDGA tournament, but the fact of this argument is the novice (Men) is overpopulated. Perhaps ratings are needed to bump up more people to the advanced division. Perhaps another division is needed to balance the scores out. Perhaps some other idea?
Phil Miller
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 10:43:58 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 12/12/2003
Posts: 499
Location: Where it gets the hose again.
Andrew Miller, Dave Marlow and I all rode to the Icebowl together and discussed this at length. Dave has some good ideas that he plans to bring up at the meeting. If you really want to voice your opinion please show up at the meeting.
Erik
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 11:00:10 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
Today, at Uno's in the Anderson Towne Center at 7 p.m.

finnhawc
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 11:10:28 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 915
Location: Wyoming
Allow points to be carried to the next level---- Echo, Echo, Echo...

And Phil, et al. -stop thinking, it is dangerous.
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