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INTERMEDIATE DIVISION 2010 Options
woottebs
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 11:44:25 AM
Rank: Regular

Joined: 10/14/2008
Posts: 67
ratings system for CCS = FAIL. add another division, whatever. but ratings system is a stupid idea if you ask me.
Erik
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 12:25:38 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
woottebs wrote:
ratings system for CCS = FAIL. add another division, whatever. but ratings system is a stupid idea if you ask me.


Just come to the meeting to explain why this would = fail.  Thanks.
woottebs
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 2:39:01 PM
Rank: Regular

Joined: 10/14/2008
Posts: 67
can't make it, have other obligations. but ratings don't prevent bagging. PDGA have ratings and people still bag there. Its a problem that can't be completely solved, but fortunately, its not a huge problem anyways. Well, its not a huge problem for MOST people, that is.
jimmy10
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 2:51:51 PM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 2/4/2010
Posts: 2
Erik
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 3:06:01 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

Back to the topic of this thread (not ratings).  Why is everyone in uproar about creating a division for all these people?  I thought that is what was done when a division gets too large it gets broken out by limiting factor.

 

The CCS started having advanced masters in 2004...  What about open grandmasters that they started in 2006...

 

"Age protected" or not, these were divisions that did not exist and were created to split up overcrowded divisions and give people a “more fair” chance to win.  Well now we have an overpopulation problem in Men's Novice...  Although intermediates not an age protected division, the need to break up this monster of a division is still there...  If you still think there are too many other divisions close some of the other ones that only have a few people participating....

StorminSteve
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 4:33:13 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 225
Location: Land of the FREE
They did combined some divisions. Masters and Grandmasters are now one. (darn and now I'm 50 ) LOL
Ben Shooner
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 5:35:01 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/16/2003
Posts: 248
It's great to see all of these creative proposals/ideas, but in the spirit of 'soapbox time' I'd like to offer a few further observations/opinions.

I’ll admit that I espouse the 'quit whining-get better' position that can come off as simplistic, sarcastic, and insensitive. But it stems from the fact that the addition of divisions rarely solves any perceived 'problems'. It was mentioned before that there is a palpable cliquiness at times. This is not surprising given the fact that with so many divisions, you often end up playing with the same folks week in and week out. I love to meet new people, but I don't have the available brain power or energy to introduce myself to every new face that might pop up at a CCS. When you play a round with someone, you get to spend a good 2 hours getting to know them and hanging out -this is part of the fun. This is one reason why I like the 1st round at the CCS and wish that we'd have bigger divisions and thus more diversity for those 2nd rounds. The addition of more divisions just means that the same people end up playing together more often (it’s called ‘division’ for a reason).

Another perennial flaw in the argument to create more divisions is the faulty assumption that all the ‘old-timers’ who want less divisions are super-skilled, over-competitive DGers due to their years of playing, and that they want nothing more than to prey upon the wallets (and pride) of un-suspecting n00bs. Lot’s of players (myself included) who have been playing for plenty long aren’t really that good! If we follow the logic that not cashing all the time deters participation-then none of these players would be around anymore. So why do we still play?

While people have many different motivations, the possibility of cashing/winning is just one of them. I like the chance to play great local courses alongside top-tier talent for a reasonable entry fee. Sure I love to do well-but I’ve only cashed once in Open-and it required me to play arguably my best rounds of competitive disc golf ever. But what was great was that it actually meant something! Sure my payout barely covered my entry fee, but the fact of knowing that I held my own against 1000 rated players was the real prize.

The reason that some scoff at the idea to add more divisions is because it fosters the notion that cashing is almost a right. It suggests that making players feel good about themselves is a necessary ingredient for the health of the sport…and that it is the best way to attract new players. But the part that is often left out is what happens to these players after they gain some experience, have some success, and are eventually forced to move up? Cashing becomes more difficult due to a smaller field of great players. Solid play is not rewarded due to the numerous divisions. It is not uncommon to have a score that falls in the top 5-10% of scores for the tourney not even cash. These players often get frustrated at the system and quit playing-leaving quite a void. This void causes the powers that be to create even more divisions in order to get more new players, thus perpetuating the cycle.

If you encourage participation by making it easy to cash-you discourage that participation once cashing becomes difficult. So while adding divisions may work as a ‘quick fix’, it really is hurting those players by setting them up for frustration down the road. When people like myself say ‘quit whining-get better’, a more accurate sentiment is ‘If winning is what you really care about-fine, but you need to actually earn it’.

I apologize for the long-winded rant, but I had to throw it out there. The CCS is great because of the many aspects that it does NOT share with the PDGA. For a low cost you get great competition and atmosphere, you can sleep until the sun is up, you’re home before dark. ..and your participation doesn’t take up the whole weekend. It is a simple setup so that it is easy for volunteer TDs to run them. I’d hate to see the CCS follow the PDGA down the road of a million divisions and/or the implementation of elaborate ratings systems that would make the TDing of a CCS a much more complicated affair.

Just play, have fun, and (hopefully) get better. You’re not as bad as your worst round, or as good as your best. You’re not always going to cash, and that’s OK!

DiscHead
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 10:29:37 PM

Rank: Regular

Joined: 3/3/2006
Posts: 81
Location: nky
Well stated Ben....may that horse finally rest in peace.
T_Vincent
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 10:37:54 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 10/25/2007
Posts: 310
Location: Cincinnati, OH
A brief summery from the meeting about this topic. Novice is gone, it is now known as recreational. This way the name better describes the division. Recreational will have a non-member fee this year, unless they are a first timer, this is up to the TD to make this decision. It also will not have a point system.

As for the player ratings, they will not be used. We will try to track it to see how the player ratings relate to scores and the divisions. The topic may by addressed again next year.

Erik, you spoke with Dave after the meeting, could you please go over this part a bit better for everyone. Thanks.
Erik
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 9:07:11 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

StorminSteve wrote:
They did combine some divisions. Masters and Grandmasters are now one. (darn and now I'm 50 ) LOL

 

Yes, but why was Advanced Masters created?  For as much as people complain about the intermediate division being created so “more people who couldn’t win prizes could win,” it seems advanced masters was started for similar reasons as why an intermediate would be needed.  In the end, it is not that people “want to win prizes” it is people want to play in a division similar skill levels.

 

The number of advanced players had reached nearly 250 entries and the older players felt they could not compete with the younger players.  Look at the pie chart below.  The red and pink indicate the Advanced and Advanced Masters divisions.  This is a combined size comparable to the size of the un-split Novice (Bright Green).  For the same reasons Advanced Masters broke off from Advanced, intermediate was needed to break off from Novice.

 

T_Vincent wrote:
Erik, you spoke with Dave after the meeting, could you please go over this part a bit better for everyone. Thanks.

 

Tony, I think you left off the cap at 100 placers per CCS and the requirement for the TD's to be prepaired to add 2 temp holes.  Thus so 20 groups of 5 could place at once.

 

As for Dave Marlow (SR),

 

Dave set the tone for this topic when he said as long “as he was the Coordinator he was not adding another division.“

 

When asked why not, he said there were too many other divisions and by adding this one division he would also have to add:  Intermediate Masters, Intermediate Women, Intermediate Juniors…  I understand you have to be fair to everyone, but why not put a minimum amount of people to have in a division.  Intermediate would be justified by the large number of novice/Rec that would play in it.  Junior Intermediates… not so much…  For this logic, where is the advanced Juniors?  Open Juniors?  Novice was simply novice (no age limitations).  Why not have intermediate set up the same?  Other supporters of intermediate argued briefly, all getting shot down.

 

I confronted him about why Advanced Masters was created in 2004, and the group said it was because there were too many people in advanced and the older players wanted to remain competitive…. 

I then asked “Aside from age, what is the difference between this problem and the problem we currently have in novice?  The underlying issue is too many people in a division and separating it by skill level.”

Dave told me to “wait 9 years and then talk to him” (I am currently 31...)

 

I was asked to bring handouts for people to see showing why an intermediate division was needed.   Most of the people who looked at handout thought it was relevant.  When I offered out a handout during the meeting to Dave, he said he did not want to see, it, he deals with graphs enough at work and moved on to another topic.  Seeing how opposed Dave was to any change for this year, I decided just to talk to him afterwards.

 

After the meeting Dave and I discussed his data vs. my data.  We came to an agreement (finally).  The agreement was the Novice field was too big.  Since the CCS is already near maximum capacity averaging 82 people a CCS the only want to further develop is to make the novice field smaller.  He pointed back at years past where there was only 4 novices competing.  I pointed to the steady growth of the division over the past 6 years.  So we agreed to wait and see what these new changes hold for Novice (now recreational...).  If the problem still exists next year we will make review it based on all the new data collected.  Perhaps player ratings might help, perhaps another division.  Perhaps nothing.  It all depends on next years results.  See you guys at in March at Harbin.

Disc golf addict
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 9:24:37 AM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 2/9/2010
Posts: 3
Maybe revote for new officers?
Erik
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 9:41:04 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
Disc golf addict wrote:
Sounds to me that Marlow along with the other officers need the boot to me what you all think about that!


He was voted president for a reason...

Ben,

 

The ‘quit whining and get better’ position was best served when there was not a bazillion divisions to choose from.  Back in 96 there was only 6 divisions.  Open, Masters, Advanced, Amateur (Novice/Rec), Juniors, and Women.  Did people whine back then to make Advanced grandmasters, Advanced masters, Advanced women, Novice women, Open Grandmasters, Open Women?

 

What made people say “you’re a girl so you deserve your own division”, or “you are old so you deserve your own…”  or “you are WAY old and deserve a to be separated from the old…” Is “cashing almost a right” for them?  I am not hating against women or our older players, but I would think the 'quit whining-get better' would have applied here first.  Why have these age/sex discriminating divisions at all if you have the 'quit whining-get better' mentality?

 

So what happens now when the Advanced Grandmasters that have been merged back with Advanced Masters?  Do the Grandmasters become frustrated with the system or feel a void from not cashing out?  What if they all were merged back to Advanced?  Would they become frustrated with the system or feel a void from not cashing out then?

 

The fact of the matter is people can not compete in the standard divisions because of ones age or sex so  the club has been creating a division specifically for them.  But when it comes down to just making it based on ability levels, like intermediate, people go up in arms to fight against it.

 

So to restate what you said, adding any new divisions was a quick fix…  why not go back to 96 with 6 divisions?  Why stop there?  Why not have Open, Advanced and Rec?  3 Divisions, no discrimination on sex or age.

 

By definition, a division in sports consists of people who compete against one another for a divisional title.  It is often part of a league system, which is a set of divisions, in which people can move between differently ranked divisions. Divisions are then organized in such a way that players in any given division are comparably adept at their chosen sport, so that matches are more even, and therefore more exciting.

 

In the end, people want to play in a division against peers, whether Masters, Women, skill level.

 

The Novice division got so large that the members felt they were no longer competing against peers.  And THAT was the underlying problem.

NEngle
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 9:41:46 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 11/18/2003
Posts: 944
Location: Fairfield, OH

Erik
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:00:09 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
NEngle wrote:



Poor horse.  Please take this down before Phil has his way with it!
boss00
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:53:09 AM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/30/2010
Posts: 10
Phil, haven't you noticed the only people who think another divison is needed, who think ratings are needed, etc.. are people NEW to the scene. There is a reason for this. Erik...pie charts? really? lol Also, age protected and sex protected divisions ARE fundamentally different than simply lack of skill. That's why there is a WNBA.
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:00:33 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
Have you ever noticed that those people are the only people the decision affected. When i dust yal off at the challenges this yr, it will be this ignorance that fueled me.....see ya then

added note....b4 we go any further with this discussion, if anyone plans on cursing at me(bad idea)
Erik
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:22:39 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212

boss00 wrote:
There is a reason for this. Erik...pie charts? really? lol Also, age protected and sex protected divisions ARE fundamentally different than simply lack of skill. That's why there is a WNBA.


Yes, there is a reason for this, 248 registrations in Male Novice…  over 2x more than any other division.  Hence the freaking pie chart.  Wonder why mainly novice are complaining?  It is mainly novices effected by this overpopulation!

 

Fundamentally different because of age or sex?  People in general are fundamentally different.

Madmike
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:41:04 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/4/2009
Posts: 400
Boss show up at the next meeting as well as disc golf addict throw your points around and see how far it goes yea its easy to yap the jaws behind the screen but in front of everyone is a different story but its up to you to show up and talk about what you do on here!
NEngle
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:45:37 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 11/18/2003
Posts: 944
Location: Fairfield, OH
I would kill to play in an overpopulated division!
Erik
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:49:42 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 212
NEngle wrote:
I would kill to play in an overpopulated division!


Then why did the other divisions get split by age?  Did you not speak out against it back then?
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:50:18 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
NEngle wrote:
I would kill to play in an overpopulated division!


lookin like the advanced card is gonna be knee deep this yr
EXMONEY@HARBIN
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 12:03:58 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 8/29/2007
Posts: 163
NEngle wrote:
I would kill to play in an overpopulated division!


Why dont you then? LOL Just sign your name on the dotted line and your in! Sorry, just saying...
boss00
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 12:14:21 PM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 1/30/2010
Posts: 10
Sc0rch3d wrote:
Have you ever noticed that those people are the only people the decision affected. When i dust yal off at the challenges this yr, it will be this ignorance that fueled me.....see ya then

added note....b4 we go any further with this discussion, if anyone plans on cursing at me(bad idea)


just a little arrogant are we? you think its ignorance that causes our resistance to your ideas? its not, its mostly the fact that all these new guys on the scene try to come in here and change everything that has worked so well for so long. and fyi, you want to talk about cliques, why are you forming them by being so divisive and polarizing with your comments? threatening people? talking about how good you are and how everyone is stupid for not agreeing with you, you guys are all turning the ccs into the opposite of what it was designed to be. you need to stop infecting the CCS with your over competitiveness and go play some PDGA tournaments or something.
Sc0rch3d
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 12:35:18 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 158
Location: cincinnati
boss00 wrote:


just a little arrogant are we? you think its ignorance that causes our resistance to your ideas? its not, its mostly the fact that all these new guys on the scene try to come in here and change everything that has worked so well for so long. and fyi, you want to talk about cliques, why are you forming them by being so divisive and polarizing with your comments? threatening people? talking about how good you are and how everyone is stupid for not agreeing with you, you guys are all turning the ccs into the opposite of what it was designed to be. you need to stop infecting the CCS with your over competitiveness and go play some PDGA tournaments or something.


difference between me n you man.....whn u view my info, my name is there. I stand behind everything ive said......whn people start cursing at people, i get heated........ might be the 7 yr stint i did. All through my posts concerning the intermediate issue i have advocated for something that wouldnt bennefit me on an advanced card. Now, i want you to find and quote the instances where ive been threatening.......im waiting

i will admitt, im very competitive....but anyone that has thrown on a card with me will tell you that im a good sport and root people on.... even whn i need 1 stroke to win

aside from that, im done discusing it with you....... online
Madmike
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 12:35:30 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/4/2009
Posts: 400
I play both boss I am only as good as everyone else says I am!!!!!!
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