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Kentucky State Championships - Singles and Doubles Options
Fred Salaz
Posted: Thursday, April 21, 2011 2:11:24 AM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,225
Drop zone was marked on Monday. Ky gap will be in effect, I trimmed it on Monday as well. It's easy to hit the gap if you aren't trying to reach the green otherwise all bets are off. I think we've all missed it once or twice. I will post all the rules on here later today(Thursday). Doubles might have to be cancelled.
perica
Posted: Thursday, April 21, 2011 10:13:11 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 367
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
Cool. Thanks, Fred.

I hope doubles doesn't get canceled - it's a long ways off though.
maddenj
Posted: Thursday, April 21, 2011 10:30:29 AM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 23
perica wrote:
Cool. Thanks, Fred. I hope doubles doesn't get canceled - it's a long ways off though.


I think Fred is talkin bout doubles this friday before KY states on saturday.
pcaldwell
Posted: Saturday, April 23, 2011 10:55:09 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/28/2003
Posts: 286
Wow - that was quite a day. Fred called the tournament once it became obvious that the 2nd round would not start for many hours due to torential rains and lightning and tornado warnings. Radar showed it wasn't going to stop in time to finish by dark. The course became completely unplayable - I walked down the main creek after the rain let up and found the creek at places to be over 100 ft wide, #3's island green and bridge under water, and #3, #15, and #16 baskets half covered by fast moving water. I was surprised that the bridges weren't washed away by the strength of the current.

Talk of the day was the ridiculous placement of #3's basket. I took an 8 on my last hole from where my 2nd shot landed 70' from the basket. I heard others took 10's and even an 18 on that hole. I'd love to hear what the superpros will say about that hole during the Bluegrass Open. ....and my unprofessional opinion is that #16 sucks. I keep learning that laying up and playing safe on that hole is no wiser than closing eyes and blasting away. The results are often better - if you are going to go OB anyway, might as well be as far down the fairway as possible.

The 1st round weather was better than anyone expected - even got sunny and hot for a while! Thanks Fred for getting the course to look as good as weather would allow.
cyrusf1
Posted: Sunday, April 24, 2011 12:15:08 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 8/2/2007
Posts: 203
Location: Hamilton (West)
Eric Sipmson, the people need you!!
Eric Simpson
Posted: Sunday, April 24, 2011 10:25:56 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 8/3/2007
Posts: 138
Location: Hebron,KY
18 found, 3 already returned. I'll post in the Idlewild lost/found.
2Timer
Posted: Sunday, April 24, 2011 10:32:08 AM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 3/30/2006
Posts: 372
Location: Ameila, Oh
Hey I lost a brand new Avenger SS on hole 3. I didn't even have my name on it yet.
Eric Simpson
Posted: Sunday, April 24, 2011 11:26:03 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 8/3/2007
Posts: 138
Location: Hebron,KY
I have it. Let me know if you want me to drop it off at a shop or just get it to you next time I see you.
jerrygotcher
Posted: Sunday, April 24, 2011 3:50:38 PM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 6/8/2009
Posts: 3
Yesterday was quite an interesting day at Idlewild. First off, I've been playing nearly twenty years and that was the first tournament I've experienced where the course became unplayable. The flash flooding was amazing to watch, particularly the runoff on holes 2 and 3. Man that water was raging!

Following the awards a group of five of us decided to head back to the course for some more golf (Scott and I drove 5 hours from Pittsburgh and we wanted another round on your beautiful and challenging course). Prior to leaving the Dugout there had already been discussion about playing hole 1 and then skipping to hole 6 in effort to avoid the creek holes. When we got to the green on hole 1 we could see the water was down significantly from when earlier. When we got to hole 3, the water level had returned to "inside" the creek banks, but the water level was barely below the railroad ties, cement blocks, etc. Unfortunately, Hole 13's bridge is heavily damaged and one of the bridges on hole 16 showed some stress/bending from water current and debris. There was a lot of erosion to the dirt inside of hole 15's island green and hole 16 had several blocks which were knocked over and/or washed downstream. Amazing to say the least.

As usual, the course looked great before and during the round. Thanks to Fred and everyone else who makes Idlewild what it is. By the way, how many cans of paint are used to paint OB on the course?
2Timer
Posted: Sunday, April 24, 2011 4:28:59 PM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 3/30/2006
Posts: 372
Location: Ameila, Oh
Thanks Eric, I didn't think I would get that back. If you could put my name on it and drop it off at the shop that would be great.
Fred Salaz
Posted: Monday, April 25, 2011 12:17:47 PM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,225
Just want to thank all that participated and braved the elements. The first round was actually quite nice from my point of view(behind the plastic covered shelter). I've never witnessed the actual flooding of the course and am amazed that more damage is not done to the course. That's a lot of fast moving water. To answer a few questions/remarks. On #3's long pin position - it will only be used for Ky states singles/doubles extreme ob rules. I will be moving it to its regular position tonight. You might think its dumb but if you birdie(3) or par it, you're picking up strokes on the field. Lay up or make your putt, it's that simple. Everyone has to play it like it or not. On #16 your best bet is to try to reach the short green and it should be an easy lay up from there. Pete it sounds like you struggled on 3 and 16 other wise you wouldn't bring it up. It took about 8 cans of spray paint to do the ob. It may be more costly than string but it's a lot faster to mark. Look for more ob(#1, #15) for the doubles in the fall. Also tweaking the format of best shot and best score. Thanks to Rob Johnston for doing the td report and pay out, Diane Brakel for helping with tding, Brian Trapp with the right tools when needed, Jason Kerl for doing the program. Thanks to Jeff Worley for helping out on the course and anyone that I forgot to mention. Thanks to the GCFDA for the $100 donation. Congrats to Adopt a hole of the year receipiants, John Carella and Shawn Marsh. They did a ton of work getting the course ready. Thanks to Eric Simpson for retreiving discs after the flood and trying to locate the owners.  Look for Idlewild to look even better this season, especially after all this rain. I forgot to give away the beautiful dyed disc that Phil Miller donated(thanks Phil), so we will be selling raffle tickets for it at the shop to raise money for the doubles tournament on Oct 1. It's almost one of a kind.
Rob J
Posted: Monday, April 25, 2011 1:46:43 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 3/1/2003
Posts: 461
Location: Indianapolis
Scores were not showing where everyone placed before -- I forgot to adjust the event as just a one rounder before uploading scores.

now fixed -> http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/65219#Open

Hole 3 was brutal, Going into it, with 3 holes remaining I think our whole card -- Shelby, Al-man, Jerry Gotcher and I -- were all about tied. I did not play those 3 holes well knockedout

Round 1 took our 4-some 4.5 hours and that was without rain.

If you finished tied for 4th in Open, make sure you got your full payout -- 7 places were paid and there was a 4 way tie for 4th.

Thanks to Fred for a great event and to Fred & Joy being such generous hosts.

[edited to correct poor memory]
Scott
Posted: Monday, April 25, 2011 8:29:23 PM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 4/25/2011
Posts: 3
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Wanted to thank Fred and everyone that brought this together. I can tell that thousands of hours are put into this course to keep it top notch. The concrete retaining walls are amazing. Its so much fun trying to hit those island greens. Yes hole #3 was challenging in that position but its a personal call. Go for it and earn a stroke or lose one, or just lay up. I like a course that forces you to think about what you should do. I read some complaints but think #16 may be the most unique hole I ever played. I liked it alot. Took a 3 on my practice round then a triple circle 9 during the tournament. No complaints. All in all I did not see any OB that is unfair or silly like I have seen in other tournaments. Keep up the good work. I will be back!
pcaldwell
Posted: Monday, April 25, 2011 9:39:52 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/28/2003
Posts: 286
I've said for years that #16 is a poor GOLF hole when I got 3's and when I got 6's. Anytime a hole puts such a premium on luck, it is suspect. Over the years the hole has improved, with some trees being removed to at least give a route to the "layup area" to the left of the creek. But then the basket was moved back. Then more trees were taken out to give a landing spot on the right side of the creek. Having watched many good players play the hole many times, most have decided that luck is such an important part of the hole that it is better to throw caution to the wind and just throw as hard as you can. If you are going to go out of bounds, anyway, by an unlucky bounce, root, grazing a tree, or not hitting trees you assumed you'd hit, etc., then you might as well go out of bounds as far down the fairway as you can. Most good golf holes (ball or disc) provide an option to layup and play for a par. 16's layup areas are too difficult to expect to land on. Even when you do, the 2nd shot layup is super hard to hit, with everything sloping toward the creek. The right side of the creek just short of the basket (the 2nd layup area) has eroded so far that there is a high probability of sliding/bouncing back into the water, anyway. There used to be an option to lay up to the far left of the basket, but the new line of rocks/OB makes that super risky, too. Many people have taken to just busting the drive, hoping to get lucky. One old strategy was to then go hard at the basket and hope for more luck (hit a tree by the basket, catch a concrete core, or just fly by and worst case, go OB and putt from 4' away). I've seen 3's from terrible drives and 6's from great drives. Most holes reward solid shots. This one rewards lucky ones. The short basket is a much better hole than the longs, but still luck plays too big a part of it. I've had this discussion with many experienced players and the vast majority have agreed.

I believe regular #3 is one of the best holes in DG, anywhere. Risk/reward off the tee, risk/reward on the 2nd shot, and even the 3rd shot if you play it conservatively. Good shots are usually rewarded and bad shots are usually punished. The placement of that basket this weekend was ridiculous. Any putt that didn't go in had a very high probability of going OB. Even a layup PUTT on the peninsula (which is crowned and slopes on 3 sides to the creek with no cores to catch the disc) can go OB. Placing the drop zone 28 feet from the basket makes it almost impossible for a player to not go at it. I saw 4 people go OB off of putts that hit solid metal. For those not there, my recollection is that the OB was only about 3 to 4 feet from OB on 3 sides.

Similar to #17 at USDGC, it makes one hole outweigh the rest of the course. Play safe and solid for 4 hours and then roll the dice on one hole. These 2 holes favor luck over skill. I wonder how many people who started reading this actually finished it?

Any comments from those who played this weekend?
StorminSteve
Posted: Monday, April 25, 2011 9:46:47 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 225
Location: Land of the FREE
Didn't play but I did read it all .
shoecrew
Posted: Monday, April 25, 2011 10:53:03 PM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 4/6/2009
Posts: 24
Location: Batavia
Read it all!
perica
Posted: Monday, April 25, 2011 11:22:25 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 367
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
I have to agree with a lot of what Pete said - and I hadn't really considered much about 16 before. My forehand off the tee flipped over into the wind and, right as I thought it was going to slam into the creek, it skipped off of a bridge and ended up even with the short pin on the right side of the creek. I ended up taking a circle 4 on it after my upshot hit shortside of the cores and I made a tiny putt over the creek. My general strategy for the second shot, so long as I have a lane at it, is to fire something overstable forehand and hope that it lands right of the creek even with the basket so you don't have a risky putt. Sometimes it just smacks a tree and goes on the green or maybe it ends up in the creek.

Regarding hole 3, that pin placement was gimmicky and too difficult. During doubles the week before, someone's layup shot hit at the base of the poll, bounced off and skipped over the cores OB. That's too tight. If the basket and the drop zone traded spots (and the bushes were chopped), I think it'd be a lot better. I took a 10 - some of that is bad upshot and some is hitting the basket from the dropzone and going OB. My round had been going pretty well for me until I hit that one. I probably sound like I'm jaded because I got my ass handed to me on that hole, but Pete put perfectly: you do just roll the dice on that one.
DrewMiller(RH)
Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 12:03:21 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/25/2009
Posts: 200
Location: Loveland
Pete's comments of 16 remind me of Ken Climo's commentary on the 2009 USDGC Video...you shouldn't be able to blast by a hole and take a par on it, being rewarded for a poor shot. Where was the pin on 3, did anyone take pics? I wish I could have it made it...
Rob J
Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:29:00 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 3/1/2003
Posts: 461
Location: Indianapolis
pcaldwell wrote:
I believe regular #3 is one of the best holes in DG, anywhere. Risk/reward off the tee, risk/reward on the 2nd shot, and even the 3rd shot if you play it conservatively. Good shots are usually rewarded and bad shots are usually punished. The placement of that basket this weekend was ridiculous. Any putt that didn't go in had a very high probability of going OB. Even a layup PUTT on the peninsula (which is crowned and slopes on 3 sides to the creek with no cores to catch the disc) can go OB. Placing the drop zone 28 feet from the basket makes it almost impossible for a player to not go at it. I saw 4 people go OB off of putts that hit solid metal. For those not there, my recollection is that the OB was only about 3 to 4 feet from OB on 3 sides. Similar to #17 at USDGC, it makes one hole outweigh the rest of the course. Play safe and solid for 4 hours and then roll the dice on one hole. These 2 holes favor luck over skill. I wonder how many people who started reading this actually finished it? Any comments from those who played this weekend?


3 is a great hole, and if it were up to me I too would have left it as it was.  (I feel the same way about the old long pin location for hole 13)

16 is not luck if you have the discipline to play it for a par (4).  The first landing area is then pretty doable the last several years.  But you have to be willing to throw a putter or mid for the first three shots.  Try just using your Aviar Pete -- with your skill set I bet you would 4 it everytime.  If you go for an eagle you may get lucky, maybe not .  

The new change on 4 surprised me.  I am not sure it helped the spread either.  When Fred and I moved that pin from the original easy deuce location (for Pros), it was to make a 2 there a true Pro birdie and increase the spread (2,3,4,5).  With the slope around the pin it made going for a long two a gamble.  Now, in the newest location I doubt there are many 2's and bet there are mostly 3's and 4's (low spread).  the fact that I got a 5 there is a reflection of how badly I played the hole and not because it was hard to get a 3 or 4  there. 

I liked the hole 11 double mando.  everyone tries to hit the KY gap so missing it is a bad shot to begin with.  I could see a drop zone just past the bridge and having no re-tee  -- especially for flow. 

I would love to see Hole 1 changed so that the old area to the right that was all small trees and thorns a few years back is now an OB line of rip rap in the small casual creek there.  I went just right of there and still got a birdie 3.  I think I should have been OB.  That would put a little more pressure on the tee shot and not allow you to benefit from being off to the right. 
A much easier fix (less resources and physical work) would be to make one of the tree trunks down the right side of hole 1's fairway a MANDO. 

All changes of the course entail a lot of hard work, and I feel a debt of gratitute to Fred for just how much fun and joy Idlewild has brought me.  I appreciate everyone who has helped make that course ( a lot of people), but Fred's work there has truly been superhuman.  There are many opinions on how hole design and someone has to make the call and do the work of putting it in play.  Fred has done an outstanding job imo.

While some of the extremes (mainly hole 3's putt drop zone rule) were not my cup of tea, I much prefer the whole creek bed being OB throughout the course and making the area past  the greens on holes 11 and 15 OB.  The course is designed to be a true 18 hole, Pro par 72 course for a 1000 rated pro.  Calling those areas OB is appropriate for players at that skill level.  It makes good sense if you are open to considering the reasoning behind it. 

I hope the course isn't made longer and more extreme as a *reaction* to events there that do not make the whole creek OB and that have the greens on 11 and 15 not be inbound islands.  IMO, the course with the designed OB's in place is almost perfect and needs no added extremes.  Rounds take long enough in tournament settings anyway.

All that said, I thought it was a great event in every way except for perhaps my play.  Thanks to all who helped get the course ready for the event -- I know that takes a lot of work.

I look forward to the Disc n Dat, just hope I get in better shape and learn how to putt by then.


Fred Salaz
Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 11:03:44 AM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,225
I agree that #3 is gimmicky but you only have to play it twice a year. If there was no OB or drop zone then all you would have to do is fire a shot over the green, take it where it went out and take an easy 3 or 4. Now it makes you think and gives you that pucker factor(pete you know about that every time you putt lol)If you play smart and conservative and have the right skills there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to par it(4). Same issue we had on #11.
To me #16 is more skill than luck, It takes a good solid drive to the short green(big fairway) and if you can't put a disc in 30x30 ft square green from 200 ft(second shot) than it's a skill problem not course design flaw. Before we know it all the trees are going to be washed away and you guys are going to be complaining that it's too easy. Come on, quit whining and enjoy the challenge of Idlewild....
perica
Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 11:11:23 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 367
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
Rob J wrote:

16 is not luck if you have the discipline to play it for a par (4).  The first landing area is then pretty doable the last several years.  But you have to be willing to throw a putter or mid for the first three shots.  Try just using your Aviar Pete -- with your skill set I bet you would 4 it everytime.  If you go for an eagle you may get lucky, maybe not .  


Why play it conservatively for a par 4 with effort rather than nearly guarantee an easy 4 with an OB stroke by just gunning it and possibly getting a birdie 3?
Rob J
Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 11:59:37 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 3/1/2003
Posts: 461
Location: Indianapolis
perica wrote:


Why play it conservatively for a par 4 with effort rather than nearly guarantee an easy 4 with an OB stroke by just gunning it and possibly getting a birdie 3?


for me on hole 16, gunning for it never assures a 3 or a 4.  I have been OB 3 times on that hole before.  Knowing how to get a par enables one to roll the dice on the risk/reward table as one sees fit.  everyone approaches the game differently though, so ymmv -- that is what makes it golf :-).  I usually try to get a three.  [edited: maybe I took a double circle 7 there Saturday and my 8 was on hole 3...?] 

If I were a smarter golfer, I would throw my putter 4 times on 16 and move on. noproblem
Fred Salaz
Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 3:25:27 PM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,225
Average scores for #3: Open - 5.7 with a 10,9,8(pete, no wonder he hates the hole),2-7's, 3-6's, 3-5's, 4-4's.

Masters - 7.6 with Lutz's 18, without it it is 6.4.

Advanced - 6.07 with 1-11, 1-10.

Intermediate - 6.0 with 1-11, no 10's or 9's and only 1-8.

Overall it averaged 6.18

Average score for #16 - Open - 4.67 with an 8, 2-6's, 5-5's, bunch of 4's and only one 3.

Masters - 5.2 with a couple of 7's,6's and 5's, 4 - 4's.

Advanced - 4.5 with 2-6's, 5-5's, 7-4's and one 3.

Intermediate - 5.67 with two 9's, an 8, five 6's, six 5's, four 4's and no 3's.

Phil Miller
Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 3:34:54 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 12/12/2003
Posts: 496
Location: Where it gets the hose again.
Replace all the water with fire. Now that's a penalty!
agentdozzer
Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 3:55:30 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/14/2006
Posts: 295
Hole 16 is one of the best holes ever FTW!!!
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