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Kentucky State Championships - Singles and Doubles Options
schick
Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 5:39:17 PM
Rank: Regular

Joined: 5/4/2008
Posts: 59
Location: Columbus
Okay, well my opinion for what it's worth is as follows. :-)

Idlewild has some of the best holes in disc golf and a couple of the most "suspect" holes I have seen. I think it is cool to try some things out and perhaps that is what Fred was doing.? The old placement for hole 3 was much better and is one of the great holes on the course......the pin we played this weekend was a bit crazy and no one in their right mind would go for it. The risk is way to high so what is the point. I also saw two lay ups from Open players from about 80 feet miss the super small green. The old hole is much better and I hope Dan plays it that way for DnD. If he does play the crazy hole, I can't wait to hear the touring pro's opinions! LMAO

As for 16, there is very little skill that can help you on that hole. Maybe you could argue the first 100 feet is skill, but after that it's a total crap shoot. I try to bust a side arm as hard as I can and bail out right with my eyes closed. The farther it goes the better....then the 2nd shot I do the same thing and hope to hit a tree close by. I think my biggest issue with that hole is the extra OB that is added....just play the water or creek's edge and leave it at that.

Fred is right, trees will continue to fall and the course will get easier and I have already noticed that. I only get to play it a few times a year and over the years things have gotten easier on certain holes. The amount of work everyone has put into that course is undeniable and appreciated, we are all very lucky to have it! The course is challenging enough and to add a couple of flukey things in there just takes away from the beauty imo.

Thanks to all involved and I hope the storms didn't do too much damage!

P.S. - For the record, I took a 4 on hole 3 and a 3 on hole 16 this past weekend! :-)
schick
Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 5:56:24 PM
Rank: Regular

Joined: 5/4/2008
Posts: 59
Location: Columbus
Here are some videos the Brakels posted on their local discussion board. The water had obviously been much higher at the peak of the rain, but it still gives you an idea! Crazy stuff.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yShORavggJk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d40aQv-ldaI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-Q2Ckg8Umw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tijXoQoORWE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ec_73-5gv0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW8E4wajGXM
Scott
Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 6:34:53 PM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 4/25/2011
Posts: 3
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Thanks for posting those videos. Also thanks to Bruce Brakel and his girls for taping them.
T_Vincent
Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 6:40:24 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/25/2007
Posts: 293
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Wow! If the conditions got to this point, it is amazimg that Eric found 18? discs. You would think they would be gone.
brian
Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:12:11 PM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 6/3/2010
Posts: 9
I did not make the tournament but played it yesterday. I love it when it all marked. Question: what was the options and penalty if you missed the ky gap and did you play the rough as ob on 15.
Fred Salaz
Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:47:57 PM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,215
Brad, you and Pete sure take the fun out of trying to challenge your game. Next time I'll give you both a pass on those holes so we don't have to listen to all the whining. Like I said before #3 is in the extreme position and only used for Ky States singles and doubles. Bluegrass open will play the original position and "Idlemild" rules..

Brian on #11 if you missed the mando the first time you had to re-tee. If you missed it again you went to the drop zone. No OB rough on 15 due to the inclement weather that was forcast. Look for it for doubles in October. I wonder if Pete and Brad will team up for that one?
perica
Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 12:23:51 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 360
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
Hey Fred, people are entitled to their opinions - and this is healthy discourse.  I decided to try and take a stab at looking how the score spread is for myself, but you listed only 15 hole 3 scores for the 18 open players.  Would you mind re-posting that? 

Average scores for #3: Open - 5.7 with a 10,9,8(pete, no wonder he hates the hole),2-7's, 3-6's, 3-5's, 4-4's.

Hole 16 is skewed positively (in open), but not super-high.  For those non-stats dorks, this means there's a big tail on the distribution extending higher than the mean score and a whole bunch of people stacked up just just under the mean.  The argument can be made that a perfect hole has zero skewness (it can be positive or negative) - that's for another discussion though.

I liked the challenge, I liked most of the course, the work that's gone into it is amazing; but this isn't putt-putt or fantasy video game golf.  Laying up from 30 feet away should not risk going OB.


andersab
Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 6:18:20 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 5/22/2006
Posts: 692
Location: in the chains
Those videos show how my putt on 16 that went into creek got so far downstream past 14.... wow. Guess I should've listened to you Schick and laid up.
Fred Salaz
Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 10:28:47 AM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,215
Mark, Looks like I missed a couple. It looks like you're into statistics. I would like to see what kind of stats you can come up with for this past weekend if you wouldn't mind. The scorecards are at the shop.
All I'm trying to do is challenge you guys. That's all.
perica
Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 1:01:49 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 360
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
Hey Fred, I don't mind at all. I build statistical models for a living so this is a little fun to nerd out on once in a while. I do hate data entry though. If I'm up by the shop I'll stop in and grab the cards - if you have access to a scanner you could email them to me. When the BGO rolls around, that'll provide a larger sample size to look at - which is desirable ... not to mention would provide a nice benchmark to see how changing the pin placement (along with having crappy weather) affected the scoring spread. I just wish there was an easy way to automate the data collection process.
finnhawc
Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 1:34:29 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 906
Location: Wyoming
Hole 16 is cool and vexing but, I feel that only the creek should be OB. I would adopt a drop zone much like #11 and Extreme #3 for any creek OB up around the basket's peninsula. A thirty footer towards the OB would kill the 'blast it past the green and take a four' shot, which is a good option now.
Extreme 3 would have played much easier without the creek raging. There was way too much luck invovled in Saturdays weather. If you used your brain and tried for an easy four less bad things could happen but, I did see Eades 45 foot third shot jump into the creek. It will make for a brilliant doubles hole as the risk can be mitigated a bit and Abby will hit the putt. :)
NatiBuckeye
Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 4:06:11 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 8/13/2008
Posts: 328
Location: Mt lookout
Fred you claim everyone is whining, yet you fire back at anyone who provides constructive criticism. I guess if you run a tournament you are entitled to pick and choose how exactly it plays. So in that respect you have every right to set up your course and tournament however you want. But was the course and tournament set up for all the disc golfers of the area to enjoy? Or for you to stroke your own ego of having the hardest set up possible? I think there was a clear non-weather related reason only 61 people played in this tournament and not the max number we get for all other tournaments in the area.

Like I said though, If you run the tournament do what you want. I'm glad we have so many tournaments in the area
schick
Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 5:38:43 PM
Rank: Regular

Joined: 5/4/2008
Posts: 59
Location: Columbus
Fred Salaz wrote:
Brad, you and Pete sure take the fun out of trying to challenge your game. Next time I'll give you both a pass on those holes so we don't have to listen to all the whining. Like I said before #3 is in the extreme position and only used for Ky States singles and doubles. Bluegrass open will play the original position and "Idlemild" rules.. Brian on #11 if you missed the mando the first time you had to re-tee. If you missed it again you went to the drop zone. No OB rough on 15 due to the inclement weather that was forcast. Look for it for doubles in October. I wonder if Pete and Brad will team up for that one?


Hey Fred, 

Sorry if you thought I was whining, I was just giving my opinion. We all know how many courses I have designed......zero.....so take my opinion for what it's worth. I do agree with Finnegan, those placements are great for a best shot doubles where one person can gun at it and the other can play safe if need be. Maybe we can just agree to disagree on a couple holes! thumbsup
brian
Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 8:58:59 PM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 6/3/2010
Posts: 9
My two cents. The masters is the biggest golf tournament in the pga. The always try to make the greens as fast has they can and you see great shots land two feet from the basket roll all the way off the green. A placements like three is as close as you can get to that in disc golf. That area might be a little to small but you use the land you have. I can not imagine holding a tournament with out playing most all the out of bounds areas.
andersab
Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 9:18:43 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 5/22/2006
Posts: 692
Location: in the chains
NatiBuckeye wrote:
But was the course and tournament set up for all the disc golfers of the area to enjoy?


That's a worthless goal... wil never happen.  You can't please everyone... everyone doesn't have to play.  Its really not even worth trying to do anymore.  On another note, Drew tries hard to do it.
StorminSteve
Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 11:28:38 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 225
Location: Land of the FREE
How about a floating basket on the lake on hole #2 for next year. That would be extreme !!
Phil Miller
Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2011 9:44:44 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 12/12/2003
Posts: 480
Location: Where it gets the hose again.
Other than the weather I really enjoyed the tournament. We did get lucky that the conditions weren't worse than they were especially once the weather rolled in for second round. Call all the OB what you will, but if you really want to challenge your accuracy like I do, than the extra OB is fun to play. I do agree that 16 can be a crap shoot but I normally try to blast it to the short placement and play from there which takes alot of the guessing out but it's still tough. I also agree that hole 3 is a tough placement, but I enjoyed playing it. After taking a trip down to the IDGC in Georgia last year and playing all of the tough courses in Charlotte I can see that more and more areas are putting in courses like Idlewild. Personally I don't think Fred was stroking his ego by making it so hard. If any of you remember Idlewild before it became the manicured course it is today you can appreicate how "easy" it has become. Idlewild used to look like a goat path through the woods with lots of sticker bushes and honeysuckle and a ton more trees. Fred and others have spent a lot of time and money on this course and it's easy to understand that feelings may be hurt when people critisize it.
perica
Posted: Friday, April 29, 2011 2:29:14 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 360
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
Hey guys, Fred Faxed me the scorecards from KY states.  I compiled the open scores with the exception of Cyrus and Jordan Rauch because I couldn't read theirs.  The one thing that popped out at me was the lack of scoring spread on holes 1 and 4.  It makes sense why this happened - but from a standpoint of 'grading' the quality of the holes, it looks like these two could stand some adjustments.  The change(s) don't necessarily have to make them harder, either.  I'd bet that the shorter (but not super short) placement on 4 would have a larger spread.

The count of each score by hole is below.

For some ideas on how people (the pdga) 'grade' hole design, check out this link.  www.pdga.com/course-design-validation

Everyone's welcome to chime in - but realize that this is a very rough attempt at looking at the scoring spread.  There are players' scores whose ratings aren't in the same ballpark that are muddying the result ... plus, the sample size isn't very large.  The discndat should provide an adequately sized field to get a pretty good look at things though.  Any volunteers for data entry in a month?


Score HOLE 1 HOLE 2 HOLE 3 HOLE 4 HOLE 5 HOLE 6 HOLE 7 HOLE 8 HOLE 9 HOLE 10 HOLE 11 HOLE 12 HOLE 13 HOLE 14 HOLE 15 HOLE 16 HOLE 17 HOLE 18
1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2 0 0 0 1 0 0 4 0 9 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 7 0
3 3 4 0 13 0 0 9 7 5 1 3 9 7 0 0 1 8 0
4 12 8 6 1 8 3 3 4 2 6 4 4 5 5 3 7 1 3
5 1 3 3 1 5 8 0 5 0 8 2 1 3 9 8 5 0 6
6 0 0 2 0 3 4 0 0 0 1 3 0 1 2 5 2 0 4
7 0 0 3 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 2
8 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1
9 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
10 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0


Phil Miller
Posted: Friday, April 29, 2011 9:45:13 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 12/12/2003
Posts: 480
Location: Where it gets the hose again.
That is some very interesting analysis Mark. Now please email me a dirty joke so I know thats really you.
Rob J
Posted: Saturday, April 30, 2011 9:03:49 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 3/1/2003
Posts: 461
Location: Indianapolis
perica wrote:
The one thing that popped out at me was the lack of scoring spread on holes 1 and 4.  It makes sense why this happened - but from a standpoint of 'grading' the quality of the holes, it looks like these two could stand some adjustments.  The change(s) don't necessarily have to make them harder, either.  I'd bet that the shorter (but not super short) placement on 4 would have a larger spread.


Score HOLE 1 HOLE 2 HOLE 3 HOLE 4 HOLE 5 HOLE 6 HOLE 7 HOLE 8 HOLE 9 HOLE 10 HOLE 11 HOLE 12 HOLE 13 HOLE 14 HOLE 15 HOLE 16 HOLE 17 HOLE 18
1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2 0 0 0 1 0 0 4 0 9 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 7 0
3 3 4 0 13 0 0 9 7 5 1 3 9 7 0 0 1 8 0
4 12 8 6 1 8 3 3 4 2 6 4 4 5 5 3 7 1 3
5 1 3 3 1 5 8 0 5 0 8 2 1 3 9 8 5 0 6
6 0 0 2 0 3 4 0 0 0 1 3 0 1 2 5 2 0 4
7 0 0 3 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 2
8 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1
9 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
10 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0




The spread on hole 4 was much better with the prior placement -- when we moved it back from the shortest original location it changed from being a Pro par 2 with little spread to a much better spread.  (the added distance as well as the slope behind the pin helped a lot).  The newest placement seems to have almost eliminated birdies and there was only one double bogey (yours truly).  iow, everyone gets a three.  

I think the spread on hole 1 would be greatly aided by my suggestion upthread -- to add a Mando on the right side of the fairway so that a shot that used to would have ended up in the right side trees (jail) would no longer still potentially be a birdie three.  I went just right of the casual creek bed there and was able to get a drop in birdie with a good upshot.  With a Mando on one of those far right trees about 400 ft down it would punish you for being too far right and it would also get in your head on the tee a little.  If the park would dig a ditch down on the right side the ditch could simply become an OB line...

the trees and bushes being removed from the right side of hoel 1 definitely has helped prevent back-ups and lost discs on hole 1.  The Mando or OB line would bring back the challenge but not the potential for back-ups. 

my two cents. 
matthew_blakely
Posted: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 11:24:28 AM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 465
Hey Fred,

Any Details on Doubles? I need to sign up!
Do you have a certain layout in mind?
See ya sometime.
Fred Salaz
Posted: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 6:56:50 PM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,215
We will have sign ups ready in the next couple of days. Lay out will be "not so extreme" doubles lay out. Do you think 2 rounds of 24 would be too much?
Added money is looking pretty good. It should be over $500.00.
JEFFV
Posted: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 11:09:25 PM
Rank: Regular

Joined: 5/3/2008
Posts: 66
Location: Amelia
Sweet!!  Shouldn't be espically if it's best shot, but 1 round of each isn't a bad idea
woottebs
Posted: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 11:43:39 PM
Rank: Regular

Joined: 10/14/2008
Posts: 67
i say one round of 24 with shorts, and one of original 18 longs. Tough OB both rounds. Worst shot round 1, best shot round 2. Boom.
Hyzer'n_Howie
Posted: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 6:26:07 AM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 2/27/2009
Posts: 28
Are you having a Masters division for the KY State Doubles?
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