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Calling the Rules Options
finnhawc
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 1:47:10 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 906
Location: Wyoming
Ok, this is for those that think calling somebody for a rules violation somehow equates to being an asshole. There is a rule in the book that essentially states that it is the responsibility of the group to watch the others throw looking for infractions. If you see a violation and don't call it YOU are cheating. Until this stupid attitude is reversed we will be stuck- afraid to call something at all. Grow up, it is a game and it has rules! Why, is there a stigma attached to calling the rules?
L_Stephens
Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 7:58:10 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 7/6/2008
Posts: 437
I don't think anyone calling someone on a rules violation is an A-Hole. I do know that due to the nature of having to call a foot fault within 3 seconds you have to use a quick voice that will no doubt sound like an A-hole..because you have to call it quickly. I also know that people don't like to make mistakes, don't like to admit to mistakes, and don't like to take punishment for mistakes made...we will skip this discussion and call it 'Human Nature'.

But I do know what you are talking about the 'Stigma' Almost every round I play....I'm in a group...someone is doing something slightly wrong...and everyone will look at me and raise their eyebrows and nod to the thrower....like: "I don't want to be the A-hole to call him...why don't you call him?" Most people are afraid to call anyone on anything unless it is absolutely crazy and is seen as a intent to circumvent the rules instead of accidental or failure to know the rules.

I could write a thesis paper on it..but A. You don't want to read that much...and B. I'm going to sleep now..... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
AdamJ
Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 10:02:47 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 5/22/2005
Posts: 1,166
Location: Nati
I believe in knowing how to better call it out, example: "Heya bud, bro, dude, I hate to do this to ya but that was a foot fault, will anyone else second this infraction please?" Remember/reminding them that we all are responsible for knowing and enforcing rule violations, respect the sport and others. We all make mistakes sometimes, and we all need to take more responsibility for our actions, plain and simple.

heading out to Huntington WV for Andy's Tourny, see some of ya's at Cabin Creek on Monday.
Jay Dub
Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 10:11:08 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/29/2009
Posts: 119
Location: Fairfield
Since I've been back playing locally I've noticed that some players do not care to follow the rules as much as we all did back when I was very involved. Late 80s early 90s. A couple examples, and these both happened in the same round of draw doubles at Mt Airy.

Player 1 teed off and the disc came to rest against a tree. If you were to stand behind the tree facing the basket, the marker was directly on the OTHER side of the tree. He put the marker in front of the disc and this gave him room to stick his foot between the marker and the tree to make his throw. The only legal stance available to him. But what he did was take a running approach, landed his foot to the side of the tree and marker when he released his disc. No one said anything about this obvious rule infraction and since I was the "outsider" in this group I didn't either. Although I did point it out after we finished the hole. No one seemed to care then either.

As we finished that hole, the other team was across the street looking for a lost disc. My partner and I was not helping because it was a practice shot taken that got lost. (another rule infraction). So while we're waiting, my partner says he knows the rules but felt it was OK for him to practice his putting while waiting for the other team to find the disc. (Rule infraction)

This seems to be the mentality of some the newer players. I am not, and can not, say everyone is this way but I have experienced this type of attitude playing at other local courses, ace funds and draw doubles. So I don't think it is unreasonable of me to think this type of attitude is acceptable for a good percentage of the current local competitive players.

We should all play by the same rules and not be the A hole that makes others worry about calling the rules.
topherb
Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 1:08:13 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 5/20/2009
Posts: 415
Location: 859
yeah a lot of people around here like to cheat!!! The winner in my division in the last BGO cheated multiple times! And when i called him out he lashed out at me! but he didn't cheat again the rest of the round!
topherb
Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 1:09:01 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 5/20/2009
Posts: 415
Location: 859
Everyone needs to start calling all of them out!! don't be scared!!!
Jay Dub
Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 3:15:12 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/29/2009
Posts: 119
Location: Fairfield
When I was playing PDGA tournaments only one time did I have to call anyone on a rule infraction, and that was me backing up Rick Rolthstein's (spl chk) call on someone taking too much time. I "toured" for 5 years before life got in the way and I had other priorities and that was the only time.

Another true story: During an Edgewood Electric Super Tour event (one of the top 10 tournaments of the year in the early 90s) Dave Greenwell was called on a foot fault on the original hole #2 at Mt Airy. A warning was given and he had to tee over. His second first shot slammed the chains and dropped into the basket for a 1 on the scorecard.

Calling rules on someone does not ALWAYS hurt them. :)
finnhawc
Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 7:19:15 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 906
Location: Wyoming
Exactly, and that brings up another point. If you witness an infraction and don't call it because it may help somebody, that you are competing against, that is cheating. "Oh, I would have called your foot-fault but you messed up the shot, so, i didn't call it." WTF is that. It is called a penalty stroke and there aren't that many ways to pick them up. I called somebody for a practice throw during an Open doubles event and have even had Tyler Horn say that I was in the wrong ("being a Dick"). I take this seriously as a messed up attitude. The guy threw the shot, knowing the rule, and expected no call, expected it. How backwards is it to think that making rule calls is "working" somebody or being a dick. UGH!!
GIES2525
Posted: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 10:40:32 AM

Rank: Regular

Joined: 3/8/2010
Posts: 71
Wait Jay Dub.... Someone aced the original hole #2 @ Airy? Is it the same 'old hole 2" that i am thinking of? If so, thats a feat id love to witness, whether it was a penalty stroke later or not.
perica
Posted: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 11:21:16 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 360
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
That would be pretty a pretty unbelievable ace, I'm pretty sure Airy was laid out differently back then though. As an aside, a foot fault does not result in any additional strokes added to the score.

Regarding John's point about the inaction of a player not calling a rules violation actually constituting a violation itself, I fundamentally disagree. I've called people on rules violations here and there. I don't seek to avoid it. Discretion is key though.

If we're on the last hole of a round at Mt. Airy and someone on the card is sitting at 20 over par and I notice that they don't have a distinguishing mark on one their discs, I'm probably not going to call them on it. That's just mean.
AdamJ
Posted: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 3:56:14 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 5/22/2005
Posts: 1,166
Location: Nati
Hole 2 at Airy that we are discussing (current hole 15) is not the same then as it is now. Tee was much closer.

Foot fault is a warning first, second time in same round it can then be a penalty. Yes I will never call someone for a foot fault if they missed a putt, never give em a second chance to make it, that's just common sense competition. Most of the time on tee pads if you foot fault it causes them to have a terrible shot. I see 90% or more of these infractions in the fairways, most people never plant their foot directly behind their mark, watch your buddies this week and see. Take the time to read the rules over and over, and over, and over, etc...
Jay Dub
Posted: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 5:38:30 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/29/2009
Posts: 119
Location: Fairfield
Adam, the original hole #2 doesn't exist anymore.

Original hole #2 at Mt Airy was at the bottom of the hill after current #7 (the shortest hole on the course) which was originally #1. What is hole #8 right now was original hole #7. #s 2,3,4,5 and 6 were originally back in the trees.

The path after current #7 (at the bottom of the hill) that goes up the hill kind of along the road was the first fairway for the original hole #2, the basket was at top of that hill off to the left, I think about a 275' shot uphill. Some time after Airy was installed a micro-burst storm hit that area. A lot of trees fell and others fell half way. So the park deemed it unsafe to have holes in that area and that was the reason for the first re-design of Mt Airy.

I doubt if most players today were around when we played Airy as a temp course and then when it was finally installed. I was one of many people who had a big hand in getting Airy installed (the reason my name is on current #2's tee sign). I'm not bragging, just explaining why I know the history so well.
Jay Dub
Posted: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 10:27:29 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/29/2009
Posts: 119
Location: Fairfield
I still get the current hole numbers wrong. The short downhill is #8 currently? The short downhill was original hole #1, whatever the current number is.
L_Stephens
Posted: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 11:18:09 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 7/6/2008
Posts: 437
I've teed off...planted in front of the pad...4 inch drop and muddy...thrown the disc 4 miles high and hyzer hard into the woods...call myself on a foot fault immediately...and hear.....*Crickets*. I've fallen forward on a 25 foot putt and chained out...called it...*Crickets*....

I guess if you call it yourself...people think you are trying to work the rules in your favor...so be it...because if that were the case..and we are early in the round...then the next time I mess up...it's a stroke. I was having a bad day in Louisville one day and called myself 6 times in one round....and *Crickets*...instead...at the end of the day..two of the guys on my card finished tied for one out of cash while I took last cash with a performance that was down right embarrassing.
finnhawc
Posted: Thursday, July 07, 2011 3:20:17 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 906
Location: Wyoming
Not calling the rules is cheating!! Is it ok to let somebody slide on marking a one meter putt or not have a unique mark on their disc? Probably not going to matter too much. Not calling an infraction because it may "help" your competition is CHEATING, Adam. Look it up in the rule book, it is there- maybe read it over again.
andersab
Posted: Friday, July 08, 2011 9:30:28 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 5/22/2006
Posts: 692
Location: in the chains
So if we all start being rule sticklers... only the non-smoking will win... everyone else will be DQ'd. LOL.
agentdozzer
Posted: Friday, July 08, 2011 1:55:30 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/14/2006
Posts: 287
Yeah in BG a few of the courses are non smoking, couldnt imagine what how bad the smokers would of got "worked" if they were called on it. Maybe I woulda placed if I woulda called them on it, could you imagine how many nic fits they would have by the end of the round? Last putt of the day and wouldnt be able to think about anything but lighting up.
Jay Dub
Posted: Friday, July 08, 2011 3:18:13 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/29/2009
Posts: 119
Location: Fairfield
Exceptions to the rules are permitted by the TD or person running the event. As long as everyone knows what the rules are and everyone plays by the agreed rules, there should be no problem.
andersab
Posted: Friday, July 08, 2011 11:41:14 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 5/22/2006
Posts: 692
Location: in the chains
Sounds like a great strategy to make a run at cashing in competition, distract players with the thoughts of a microscope so they can not concentrate on the game at hand. So many ways to use this one.
Jay Dub
Posted: Saturday, July 09, 2011 7:15:32 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/29/2009
Posts: 119
Location: Fairfield
So don't ever call the rules on anyone because it will distract them from their game and there fore it's not fair? How about just playing by the damn rules.
L_Stephens
Posted: Sunday, July 10, 2011 9:37:53 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 7/6/2008
Posts: 437
Just came in from Madisonville, KY A-Tier and I'll tell you what...I saw some rules calling going on there. I saw foot faults being called....I saw a guy getting stroked for not allowing the group to establish whether or not he was in or out of bounds before he marked his lie...he just quickly walked ahead of the group and marked it before we could get there...I saw a warning for kicking a bag...pretty hard...after a missed putt....but the best was...this course has several holes that either parallel or multiple tees at one location...and our card called a Rec player for practice throws because he was putting toward a tree after missing a 10 footer....I counted 7 throws before we could get his attention...we told him he had to take a stroke for each practice throw....he counted in his head and said '13'..plus the 4 on the hole....heh...a 17...now that's honesty after being called.
finnhawc
Posted: Monday, July 11, 2011 1:44:28 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 906
Location: Wyoming
How very refreshing, Lee. It doesn't ruin a game to call the rules. It shouldn't be an extra burden to make calls. That Rec player has learned a valuable lesson... honesty always wins, ultimately.
topherb
Posted: Monday, July 11, 2011 2:33:14 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 5/20/2009
Posts: 415
Location: 859
good they deserve it ! play by the rules or go play casual!!! tournaments are for competition cash and prizes! not for fun!!!
no putts
Posted: Monday, July 11, 2011 7:33:44 PM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 11/3/2010
Posts: 22
Location: Fairfield
If u don't have fun at tournaments. Why play them. You can still have fun and play by the rules. As far as foot faults go. When I play with my friends there foot does land behind there marker. Because they make a concious effort to do so. To not do so is an advantage,and is cheating. Any pro or experienced player is likly missing the mark on purpose. And often to the side of the mark that helps them.
shex44
Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 3:40:41 AM

Rank: Regular

Joined: 1/27/2010
Posts: 72
Location: Hebron, KY
As a player who has played a lot of casual rounds, and only 3 competitive rounds I will say that it is a good thing to call someone on a foul, but don't be a dick. If someone, like me, is playing Rec let us know what we are doing wrong. It is still a penalty, but also a learning experience. I had a guy call me for a "falling putt" at my first tournament, AJ Jolley last year CCS, 4 times before he told me what I was doing wrong. He would gust yell "penalty." Now I know better, and I don't do it anymore.
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