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Why is local PDGA tournament attendance decreasing? Options
NatiBuckeye
Posted: Thursday, June 13, 2013 4:08:44 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 8/13/2008
Posts: 348
Location: Mt lookout
I'm sure I am not the only one who has noticed a drastic dip in local PDGA tournament attendance.  As you can see by the data below all CCS events have kept steady with 80+ players at each event which I expect to continue.  However PDGA tournament attendance has dropped each month this year as well as the last two years.  If you are a CCS player who does not play PDGA events, why?  If you are playing in other tournaments but not local why?  Both tournaments run by Holly so far have seen 95+, Columbus and southern events are at 90+. 


CCS:
Harbin   (85)
Turtle    (87)
Monroe (100+)


PDGA:
Ice Bowl finale at LR  (77)
NatiI first run               (54)
Nati second run          (34)
Blue grass                  (46)
*current Nati 3rd run   (16)
*Am champs               (13)
brutalbrutus
Posted: Thursday, June 13, 2013 5:58:49 PM
Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 4/16/2012
Posts: 713
Location: amelia
if I had to guess i'd say its mostly to do with money pdga tournies are expensive even more so for me since im not a member yet
jo8594
Posted: Thursday, June 13, 2013 6:09:05 PM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 9/11/2008
Posts: 14
I'm not positive... but it seems the fees are a bit steep for a C tier. You aren't going to get any out of town-ers since there are so many tournaments nowadays. Figure generally 60% of the field is rec/int players since Advance seems to be a division where either you bag down in INT or just move up to Open... hardly ever any Advanced.
Let's say the cost is $45 dollars for entry just for Rec. Half of the field won't have PDGA memberships, so that's another $10 dollars. Sign up day of, which is what a lot of people like to do for the small tournaments it seems, so that's another $5. We are up now to $60 dollars not even including ace money, split the pot, throw offs, etc. The players pack is generally 1 disc and odds and ends. Maybe a $20+/- value. So that's a $40 dollar loss. The payouts are not cash for the AMs so unless you love having an ever ending collection of discs, you lose money. Since they are local courses, there multiple weekly events where you can get the same experience paying less than $10 rather than $60 and play for cash.
If you want more attendance, you have to run these small C tiers like the CCS; little to no players pack and smaller entry fee to get your casual tournament player out on the course.
This is just my opinion on the matter. Feel free to critique or comment.
NatiBuckeye
Posted: Thursday, June 13, 2013 8:34:49 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 8/13/2008
Posts: 348
Location: Mt lookout
Interesting
sisyphus
Posted: Thursday, June 13, 2013 9:36:15 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 1/20/2012
Posts: 303
Location: Eastgate
Personally, I've become quite the fan of the one day B-tier tourneys that Holly Williams runs. As someone who plays Rec or AGM, they seem to hold the best value for me: good player's pack, a chance to get some different merch than available through the CCS events, and I have fun with the challenge level. I totally respect the 'Nati events, but in the year and a half I've been playing, a lot of the locally sanctioned events have felt geared towards Intermediate and above skill levels.
I know there are all kinds of opinions about running tourneys, but I'm not going to complain about any of it, having just an outsider's view of the effort it takes to host an event. I do have a feeling that if you want to increase attendance, the bulk of the players in any area are actually casual - novice - recreational folks who we need to entice to try the tourney scene. Get enough folks out having fun, and there could be growth enough to start interesting more sponsorships and ramping up payouts for the open players!
perica
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:06:39 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 370
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
Very awesome question, Natibuckeye.  Attendance is down throughout his year but looking at things year-on-year (jan-june '13 vs. jan-june '12) would really be a better viewpoint from which to analyze.

To try and find what drives local tournament attendance, I bet the answer is at hand but has yet to be organized.  Garnering a lot more than just this year's attendance stats could likely tell us.  My gut says that the number of tournaments within a certain distance and the entry fees of all of them would be significant reasons. Ideally, several years of data could be used to figure it out.

Send me a pm,  I do consulting analyses like this for a living.  If you don't mind scurrying up the data, I can take a look at it.
Fred Salaz
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:00:53 PM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,233
The Nati events have never been a big draw even though they have been consistently some of the best pay outs. They have been boycotted by the club for a while now.
alex.e
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:23:04 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/13/2012
Posts: 221
Location: Batavia
For me it's as simple as this is my first year playing tourneys and find the pdga entry fees a little high plus I am not a member so I also have the 10 buck fee. I say this only because I have almost a next to zero chance of winning or cashing and I don't have a lot of disposable income lol. That being said I am planning on playing the queen city ams.
perica
Posted: Saturday, June 15, 2013 12:25:44 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 370
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
Looking back, it's all in the number of tournaments available to folks.  Back when there was just three or four PDGA events, the pig would fill up two weeks in advance.  Excluding doubles, 2012 had nine events and 2013 has ten slated.

Assuming consistent attendance, it looks like 2013 is on track to have the most overall tournament entries ever, but has the lowest attendance rates seen yet.  The numbers below exclude doubles and age-restricted evets.

Year Total Entrants # of events
2005 225 3
2006 257 3
2007 349 4
2008 388 4
2009 353 4
2010 376 4
2011 410 5
2012 593 9
2013 309 5
2013 projected 618 10

alex.e
Posted: Saturday, June 15, 2013 3:45:27 AM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/13/2012
Posts: 221
Location: Batavia
Interesting
NatiBuckeye
Posted: Saturday, June 15, 2013 10:47:18 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 8/13/2008
Posts: 348
Location: Mt lookout
perica wrote:
Looking back, it's all in the number of tournaments available to folks.  Back when there was just three or four PDGA events, the pig would fill up two weeks in advance.  Excluding doubles, 2012 had nine events and 2013 has ten slated.

Assuming consistent attendance, it looks like 2013 is on track to have the most overall tournament entries ever, but has the lowest attendance rates seen yet.  The numbers below exclude doubles and age-restricted evets.

Year Total Entrants # of events
2005 225 3
2006 257 3
2007 349 4
2008 388 4
2009 353 4
2010 376 4
2011 410 5
2012 593 9
2013 309 5
2013 projected 618 10



what events did you count for2012 and 2013 perica?
NatiBuckeye
Posted: Saturday, June 15, 2013 10:49:36 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 8/13/2008
Posts: 348
Location: Mt lookout
I appreciate the numbers but if an event occurs on a date with no other competition it should expect to see the same attendance as any other event. However we know that's not true if a CCS event, Dayton event, Columbus etc.. can get more than 90

2011 we averaged 82 per event

So as long as a tournament falls on a date with no competition why are 80+ not signing up?
Troy
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2013 8:22:55 AM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/20/2009
Posts: 448
Location: Amelia, Ohio
I have traveled to Peru Indiana, Bowling Green Ky (Twice), Columbus Oh (Twice), Chilicothe Oh, Hillsboro Oh, Mt. Sterling Ky and Dayton Oh so far this year to play in tourneys. This on top of several local tourneys including all the Course Challenges. Courses have a great bearing on where I play in that I don't want to play a course that is not fun. I have played several new courses so far this year and how well I enjoyed them will determine whether I play in any future tourneys there.
As far as NatiBuckeye's question " So as long as a tournament falls on a date with no competition why are 80+ not signing up?" cost vs payout is what a lot of the newer players are looking at today. New players believe that there is sandbagging going on with more expierenced players winning the discs and this causes newer players not to want to play. They figure why pay money (When in their minds) they cannot beat established players. Look at the results of tourneys this year in the Ams divisions including Course Challenges.
perica
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2013 8:24:42 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 370
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
2012 & 13 events -
rapid run ccs
flying pig
ohio state classic
mt airy ccs 2012
banklick ice bowl 2013
disc n dat
turtlecreek
nati big 3
perica
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2013 8:38:37 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 370
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
and to your second question, i think it's the marginal utility of playing 'another' event. the hardcore folks will play in tournaments every weekend if they can. a lot of others would get burnt out doing that, not to mention have families and other commitments.
Enzy
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2013 2:32:00 PM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 8/12/2008
Posts: 26
Location: Across the Street from Idlewild
I signed up for the PDGA last year and was hoping to play more PDGA events. One probelm I have is unexpected busy weekends and it seems that there is less CCS PDGA events this year. Also as a rec player it is hard to get excited about going to Idlewild/Airy to play to 2 rounds and finish +20 and not place beacuse of baggers. If there were more PDGA events at rec friendly course where pro's weren't allowed to play I would of made sure to attend more events.

Just some quick thoughts from a rec player
NatiBuckeye
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2013 5:36:42 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 8/13/2008
Posts: 348
Location: Mt lookout
Enzy wrote:
I signed up for the PDGA last year and was hoping to play more PDGA events. One probelm I have is unexpected busy weekends and it seems that there is less CCS PDGA events this year. Also as a rec player it is hard to get excited about going to Idlewild/Airy to play to 2 rounds and finish +20 and not place beacuse of baggers. If there were more PDGA events at rec friendly course where pro's weren't allowed to play I would of made sure to attend more events. Just some quick thoughts from a rec player


Can you expand on your "baggers" thoughts. 

A PDGA event actually has procedures in place that force others to move up when they score in a specific range.  Our CCS events only do this if a player drastically out scores his division.  To my knowledge no player has been asked to move up at a CCs event.  That includes players who finished in the top three last year and are still playing in the same division.  In my mind this would lead me to believe the PDGA is harder to "bag" in compared to a CCS event. 

Additionally each player plays the same course.  So if a player out plays you at Airy/Idle that player should beat you on an "easy" course as well.

As a prospective TD I am just trying to understand so in the future I can attract as many players as possible. 
Troy
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:53:36 PM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/20/2009
Posts: 448
Location: Amelia, Ohio
NatiBuckeye wrote:


Can you expand on your "baggers" thoughts. 

A PDGA event actually has procedures in place that force others to move up when they score in a specific range.  Our CCS events only do this if a player drastically out scores his division.  To my knowledge no player has been asked to move up at a CCs event.  That includes players who finished in the top three last year and are still playing in the same division.  In my mind this would lead me to believe the PDGA is harder to "bag" in compared to a CCS event. 

Additionally each player plays the same course.  So if a player out plays you at Airy/Idle that player should beat you on an "easy" course as well.

As a prospective TD I am just trying to understand so in the future I can attract as many players as possible. 


I should have said "Percieved baggers". When younger players see "Seasoned" players they assume that those players have been playing for years and should not be in a lower division. I didn't want to turn this into a "Bagger" issue, I was just trying to explain why some younger players are not wanting to play in sanctioned tourneys.   
NatiBuckeye
Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 6:40:37 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 8/13/2008
Posts: 348
Location: Mt lookout
Thanks Troy, but I completely get your point and no this should not become the bagger thread.
Steveh
Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 8:03:04 AM
Rank: Regular

Joined: 1/1/2009
Posts: 65
 This year I planned to play more tournaments but it just has not worked out. Other issues were involved but cost was probably the biggest detractor for me. It was just very hard to convince my wife that a disc golf tournament was worth almost 45-50$'s for some the recent local tournaments. Her answer was no, so I could not play them. I can see her point though when money is tight as it is, putting out close to 50$ is a hard thing to do. Not saying it is not worth because every tournament i have played so far has been worth every penny it is just hard to justify almost 50$ to play in the rec division. Hopefully things will get a bit better and I will be able to play some tourneys coming up. I was hoping to play some of the CCS's but it seems that every weekend they come up I have other things going on. This weekend is start of a mini vaca for me so williamsburg is probably out.cry

 
Enzy
Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:14:42 AM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 8/12/2008
Posts: 26
Location: Across the Street from Idlewild
@NatiBuckeye - I agree with Troy. There might no be true baggers in PDGA events but as rec players there is a wide range of skill levels that can turn younger players away.

Just look at the Bluegrass Open that was just held. The difference in the Rec level is 28 strokes. (Sorry it didn't paste well below)

1 Chris Engel 55047 867 75 896 85 829 108 875 +33 268
2 Brian Hughes 48752 866 89 775 83 846 108 875 +45 280
3 Vinnie Hamm 81 844 87 812 113 849 +46 281
4 Mark Kahmann 59826 84 818 87 812 114 843 +50 285
5 Jim Javins 34986 824 85 809 90 788 121 806 +61 296

Who wants to get beat by 28 strokes on their first tourney? Doubt anybody
brutalbrutus
Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:25:31 AM
Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 4/16/2012
Posts: 713
Location: amelia
In defense of chris engel he is far from a bagger, and if you look closer nobody in the rec shot above a 896 rated round and basically that round was the difference between first and second place one hot round and chris has the perfect game for a rec player at idlewild throws straight and not really far enuf to get into trouble if it isn't straight and for that matter if beginners want to come out they only need 3 or 4 to make a novice division which I believe is available for pdga tournies right?
Enzy
Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:26:20 AM

Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 8/12/2008
Posts: 26
Location: Across the Street from Idlewild
Here are the results from the Nati Big 3 Event at Mt Airy

1 36 Ben Culshaw 51441 71 913 68 937 139
1 36 Greg Mcatee 39305 877 69 929 70 921 139
3 30 Steven Moore 41470 908 72 905 71 913 143
3 30 Bob Roberts 50991 871 69 929 74 888 143
5 24 Nathaniel Romans 41285 882 73 896 75 880 148
6 21 Mike Georgiton 75 75 150
7 18 Andrew Gillespie 41984 849 74 888 77 864 151
8 15 Perry Streby 76 76 152
9 12 David Edwards 50345 857 77 864 76 872 153
10 9 Bryan Dettmer 50891 75 880 80 839 155
11 6 Tom English 49299 822 86 790 84 806 170
12 3 Pat Shannon 1473 720 98 691 93 732 191

A 52 stroke difference in rec players. Even if you remove the lowest player in rec the difference is 31

brutalbrutus
Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:29:52 AM
Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 4/16/2012
Posts: 713
Location: amelia
I spent an entire year getting my butt kicked last year only cashed in one tourney out of 9 and that was tied for last cash haha I didn't really care about baggers then and really don't now that I am getting better and cashing more often. I have to play MY game and beat them, whether they are "bagging" or not.
brutalbrutus
Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:32:05 AM
Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 4/16/2012
Posts: 713
Location: amelia
Enzy wrote:
Here are the results from the Nati Big 3 Event at Mt Airy 1 36 Ben Culshaw 51441 71 913 68 937 139 1 36 Greg Mcatee 39305 877 69 929 70 921 139 3 30 Steven Moore 41470 908 72 905 71 913 143 3 30 Bob Roberts 50991 871 69 929 74 888 143 5 24 Nathaniel Romans 41285 882 73 896 75 880 148 6 21 Mike Georgiton 75 75 150 7 18 Andrew Gillespie 41984 849 74 888 77 864 151 8 15 Perry Streby 76 76 152 9 12 David Edwards 50345 857 77 864 76 872 153 10 9 Bryan Dettmer 50891 75 880 80 839 155 11 6 Tom English 49299 822 86 790 84 806 170 12 3 Pat Shannon 1473 720 98 691 93 732 191 A 52 stroke difference in rec players. Even if you remove the lowest player in rec the difference is 31




um what kind of drugs are you on here those are not all rec players??????????

oh I see you were looking at last years tourney
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