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Mt. Airy Options
Fred Salaz
Posted: Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:07:45 PM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,215
That basket was loose when we played Mt Airy in the Tuesday ace fund. It looked like when they pulled it from #7 who ever did it just stuck it in the ground without adding more concrete. I'm as much to blame as anyone cause I knew what needed to be done but didn't do it. I thought someone else would step up. Did anyone else think of that?
Flank
Posted: Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:33:05 PM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 8/1/2006
Posts: 18
man, that bites. I noticed that basket wasnt in there too well. The ground was caving in a bit. Whoever did it is the epitome of lame, if in fact somebody took it.
Fred Salaz
Posted: Monday, January 15, 2007 6:52:44 PM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,215
Keith, why don't you contact the park director and see if we can do something about the erosion. If the ground ever freezes that would be the perfect time. At least we could put some on the paths between holes.
Fred Salaz
Posted: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 7:41:10 PM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,215
Is there any chance the club can vote on some gravel for Mt Airy over the web site. I'm thinking by the time the next meeting comes around I won't be able to organize it. Right now it's too cold to play might as well work. Paul? Anyone?
We could do it this weekend.
Kool Keith
Posted: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 11:19:18 AM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 6/28/2005
Posts: 338
I just wanted to share this info with all of you:

______________________________________________________

What can disc golfers do to help the erosion/muddy spots at the Mt Airy course? I know it is a concern of yours, and losing holes 7 and 8 definitely has brought this issue to light in the Cincy disc golf club. We have used fine gravel on high traffic areas at other local courses, and it has worked great. It works into the soil quickly, allows grass to grow through, and also helps water drain faster. We usually put a light layer on the ground around baskets that hold water, and also on high-traffic paths that hold water. I think spots that could use this would be around the basket/tee area and path at 15/16, maybe the tee at 3, the non cement pads at the 2 new holes, and some other spots. There was a tournament there this past Sunday and while the whole course was wet, some spots were especially muddy.

We'd also love for you to come out and take a walking tour of the Idlewild Course in Burlington KY with us to see what we have done to help stop erosion and preserve the environment while making one of the nicest places to play in the country.

I'd appreciate any of your thoughts on this issue, and look forward to working with you in the future.

___________________________________________________________________-

I received an email response in no less than one hour, and here is what it said.

____________________________________________________________________

Thanks for the suggestion and the offer to help. I'll get back to you. I have copied the managers of Mt. Airy Forest who would be working with you and club members on any maintenance improvements to the course.

_______________________________________________________________________


So, it's out there. All you have to do is ask like Pete always says.

frizgolf
Posted: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 3:50:21 PM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 5/17/2003
Posts: 221
Quote:
Originally written by Fred Salaz on 1/17/2007 9:41 AM

Is there any chance the club can vote on some gravel for Mt Airy over the web site.



Quote:
Originally written by Kool Keith on 1/18/2007 1:19 AM

I just wanted to share this info with all of you:

______________________________________________________

What can disc golfers do to help the erosion/muddy spots at the Mt Airy course?


Dan stated that $310 was raised for the Fairhaven Mission.
Truly a great cause, and I don't mean to take away from it in any way.
My question: how much will this gravel cost? What can disc golfers do to help erosion? Don't play in mud.
I know Dan raises good sums of money for Fairhaven. However, if we have to vote for money to repair damage, what good was it? Why not, when playing conditions are sloppy, cancel or alter the event, and vote for a club donation to Fairhaven instead?
If I was a park director, I'd wonder about the wisdom of playing in the rain in the first place. Without question, I'd be reluctant to fund erosion control brought about by bad weather play.
When PDGA tournaments are scheduled, and people travel to the tournament, play will ensue regardless of conditions. This was not a sanctioned tournament, and as such, I'm sure no insurance was secured. Does this insurance in PDGA tournaments cover park damages incurred during sanctioned tournaments?
I'm having a little trouble seeing the sense in going through with an event after three straight days of soaking rains on a hilly course, then asking the club to bail it out. I would be more open to vote yea for a donation from the club in the event of event cancellation due to weather rather than repairing a course after the fact.
In this case, I'll go along with a yea vote for gravel. In the future, I'd be leery of continuing with such an event after, and during, such a three day rain.
We would do more for park relations if we learned to respect the course when weather throws such a nasty pitch. I'm all for the "no wimps" motto, and I'll be the first to admit I am, indeed, a 40 degree rain wimp, but this was an extraordinary circumstance. A line must be drawn somewhere.
Discgolfkid
Posted: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 4:28:22 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 139
Location: Fairfield
I agree with both sides of this issue. What Russ says is true; there is a point where it's not about dedication. There is a point where playing out on the course is only asking for it to have erosion problems, and we shouldn't just fix it by getting gravel. We should stay off courses with known problems if we think that it puts the course at risk for erosion.

That said, I think that putting some gravel in at Mt. Airy would help, provided that the gravel isn't too expensive. We should put it in now when casual play is slowed down, and then perhaps next winter the course won't have any erosion issues. We realized what has happened, and we can take the cautious forsight to prevent more erosion.
Discgolfkid
Posted: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:03:22 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 139
Location: Fairfield
There's not much we can do about casuals other than post a sign at the first tee that informs them to avoid muddy areas in the rain and post something on the website here to tell people before they get out to the course. You can't really force any of the obstinate casuals to do anything, though. We had an extremely stubborn group insist on playing before us during the 90-player harbin cc last year. I think that we should try to place down gravel in trouble spots as soon as possible, and if it works well enough we can continue to put gravel where it is needed.
2Timer
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2007 6:34:56 AM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 3/30/2006
Posts: 372
Location: Ameila, Oh
If you don't know what I am trying to say then maybe you should read my post one more time, it is pretty straight forward. And I never accused anyone of being a pansy who doesn't play in bad weather. There is an erosion problem at Mt. Airy, I already addressed that. You threw out 2 paragraphs that had nothing to do with what I posted.
frizgolf
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2007 7:32:41 AM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 5/17/2003
Posts: 221
You say I insinuated someone was lying. I said it was hard to believe.
Until someone backs up the 'dozen' or so casuals out there, I will still find it hard to believe. Even if there were that many casuals out there, I still take your response as 'for' playing in any conditions above any concerns for the destruction of the course such play brings.
STEVO
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:11:52 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/10/2003
Posts: 228
Russ, separate a paragragh every now and then. Just because you THINK in a stream of consciousness....:)

The gravel will work well at Mt. Airy, and the sooner the better. Pete's right, using it wisely should stop all the problems that are currently being complained about. Idlewild is a good example. I've played there when it was pouring rain, and although it's rather hilly, there is always a non-muddy place to walk. When I'm done, my shoes are not even dirty, just wet.

As far as the Ice Bowl situation, one solution would be to have a back-up course planned, such as AJ Jolly or Harbin. Neither of these courses sustains much extra wear and tear when the weather's bad, and they're less treacherous to walk, as well. Just be prepared to announce a couple days in advance if the main course is "unplayable".
frizgolf
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:29:03 AM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 5/17/2003
Posts: 221
I count four paragraphs there. ;-)
You wanting spaces, too?
bobherb
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:41:22 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 445
THE FINAL FRONTIER!!!
perica
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:23:52 AM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 360
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
Isn't there some gravel on the trail leading from #3's tee along the fairway?
Rob J
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:32:19 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 3/1/2003
Posts: 461
Location: Indianapolis
Quote:
Originally written by STEVO on 1/18/2007 9:11 AM

Russ, separate a paragragh every now and then. Just because you THINK in a stream of consciousness....:)

The gravel will work well at Mt. Airy, and the sooner the better. Pete's right, using it wisely should stop all the problems that are currently being complained about. Idlewild is a good example. I've played there when it was pouring rain, and although it's rather hilly, there is always a non-muddy place to walk. When I'm done, my shoes are not even dirty, just wet.

As far as the Ice Bowl situation, one solution would be to have a back-up course planned, such as AJ Jolly or Harbin. Neither of these courses sustains much extra wear and tear when the weather's bad, and they're less treacherous to walk, as well. Just be prepared to announce a couple days in advance if the main course is "unplayable".


great post. i like the idea of having a back-up course that plays reasonably well in wet/muddy weather and Harbin and Jolly sound like winners. and as for gravel -- i'm all for it. grass ends up growing through most of it within a year anyways, which means the gravel gets rid of muddy areas and gets grass to grow. sand might work if landscapers or park people were squeamish about gravel -- but imo they shouldn't be.

gravelman out

Discgolfkid
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2007 4:30:28 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 139
Location: Fairfield
Quote:
Originally written by STEVO on 1/18/2007 11:11 AM

Russ, separate a paragragh every now and then. Just because you THINK in a stream of consciousness....:)

The gravel will work well at Mt. Airy, and the sooner the better. Pete's right, using it wisely should stop all the problems that are currently being complained about. Idlewild is a good example. I've played there when it was pouring rain, and although it's rather hilly, there is always a non-muddy place to walk. When I'm done, my shoes are not even dirty, just wet.

As far as the Ice Bowl situation, one solution would be to have a back-up course planned, such as AJ Jolly or Harbin. Neither of these courses sustains much extra wear and tear when the weather's bad, and they're less treacherous to walk, as well. Just be prepared to announce a couple days in advance if the main course is "unplayable".


Harbin is more of a problem with the players because I can imagine some of the ditches quickly becoming ponds (like on hole one sometimes. There is often standing water several days after rain.) It could work pretty well though. But we'd have to use the Pig Layout because 14's fairway becames a waterway the second rain hits it.
Fred Salaz
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2007 4:49:03 PM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,215
My question is: If the parks doesn't come through with gravel is the club willing to spend a few bucks(a couple of hundred actually) on the course to keep erosion down? Or is this discussion going to go on until I've gone on to the back nine of life?
Discgolfkid
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2007 6:03:46 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 139
Location: Fairfield
Are there any alternatives to gravel? Perhaps anything cheaper that we could test out on a few areas and see if it works? That is, of course, if price becomes an issue.
Rob J
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2007 6:45:47 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 3/1/2003
Posts: 461
Location: Indianapolis
wood mulch is free but it floats right away when rain soaks the ground and starts to run off. mulch is a yearly if not quarterly job and gravel stays put. the Parks usually have access to gravel and sand (for baseball diamonds). if Airy park people have a problem with gravel they could put sand around the baskets for the erosion that goes on underneathe them. after several months time, grass will grow through sand or gravel and help hide, anchor, and 'soften' it...
Discgolfkid
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2007 7:18:40 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 139
Location: Fairfield
Quote:
Originally written by Rob J on 1/18/2007 8:45 PM

wood mulch is free but it floats right away when rain soaks the ground and starts to run off. mulch is a yearly if not quarterly job and gravel stays put. the Parks usually have access to gravel and sand (for baseball diamonds). if Airy park people have a problem with gravel they could put sand around the baskets for the erosion that goes on underneathe them. after several months time, grass will grow through sand or gravel and help hide, anchor, and 'soften' it...


So gravel or sand it is!
STEVO
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:01:53 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/10/2003
Posts: 228
You're not on the back nine yet, Fred? Jeez, I think I'm about on hole 12, and I'm using a riding cart! :lame
Kool Keith
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:16:19 PM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 6/28/2005
Posts: 338
I think some people may be cofused with the method of using gravel to fortify soft spots and help drainage.

We do not put so much gravel around the pins that it resembles concrete. It's not going to kill your Aviar when you miss a putt, and it's not going to be even noticible from the fairway.

We put a very thin layer in trouble spots only - it's not even a complete "layer" as much as it's just a sprinkling. It gets compacted and worked into the soil within days, and in two weeks you'd never even know it's there if you were not looking for it.

We've used very fine gravel in the past - think of it as dry, chunky kitty litter. It is as close as you can get to sand without using sand I'd say, and it's effects are long lasting.

Think of hole 10 at Idlewild. All green green grass. Last year at this time if you tried walking down the first leg of that hole after even 1 day of rain, you'd be slipping, squishing, making huge muddy footprints, and that was just walking. Let alone trying to play a shot! A little gravel here, a little gravel there, now it drains quicker, it has better footing, and it takes about 5x the rain to really see any effects. And you'd never know there was gravel there.

Rob could tell you all the places at Idlewild where there is gravel hidden, doing it's job, and not interfering with play. He's been primarily the one spreading it with wheelbarrows all over the course. (Oh, and the pile is always in the parking lot at hole 1, think about that). It's really made Idlewild into a safe place to play with a little wetness, versus the sloppy mess it was little more than one year ago.

Our sport is going to play on rainy days, snowy days, hot days, and cold days. Casuals and tourney players are going to come out when they get the feeling, no matter what the weather. We need to make the course as durable and safe as possible to accomodate this. The situation on Sunday was pretty rare indeed, happening only 2-3 a year around here. What we need to work on are the slippery and soft spots on the courses, where we can help. Nothing can fortify a course for the weather conditions that we had last weekend. We can only hope that the environment comes back strong.

Kool Keith
Posted: Friday, January 19, 2007 8:34:00 AM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 6/28/2005
Posts: 338
UPDATE!!!!

Keith and Steve
I am aware of the erosion problem surrounding the tee pads in both disc golf course. We have tried using mulch with little success, mostly because we cannot keep up with routine application and maintenance. I have been reluctant to direct staff to use gravel in these areas for a couple of reasons. The biggest concern is damage to mowers and potential for injury from discharged gravel. I am also with the appearance of gravel in these areas (although I don't think it will be worse than mud). However we do need to develope a solution for this this problem. Please get back to me with some dates when we can meet to discuss issues regarding disc golf course. From this meeting I would like to develope overall maintenance strategy for the disc golf course including erosion control issues, tee rotation, volunteer support, litter and any other areas of concern.

Thanks
LP

Parker, Larry Larry.Parker@cincinnati-oh.gov


So, there you go.
bkaplan10
Posted: Friday, January 19, 2007 8:38:24 AM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 6/2/2003
Posts: 177

very nice Keith!

Gravelman, maybe you should email this guy and explain all the wonderful aspects of gravel!  :-)

bobherb
Posted: Friday, January 19, 2007 9:24:23 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 445
Even better, send some pictures of where Idlewild has gravel placed and...

Ask the Boone County guys to attest to the fact that the gravel stays put when the mowers run over it.

Keith, your almost poetic explanation of how the gravel is applied (thin layer which soon almost disappears, etc.) in your recent post (#13425) could perhaps be shared with Mr. Parker. You are on the verge of a nice breakthrough with him. If some trust develops over time, who knows what could be next. Way to go!
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