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"Masters vs. Open Grudge Match" Options
discndat
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:19:07 AM

Rank: Expert

Joined: 3/1/2003
Posts: 1,551
Not sure what round we're in but here it is. :fight
NEngle
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:21:46 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 11/18/2003
Posts: 944
Location: Fairfield, OH
My money's on the Open. The masters are old you know.
Craig
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:42:59 AM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 240
Could someone copy Pete's last post over to this thread. That was some of the best stuff I've seen on here in a long time. I'm looking foward to the 50+ lbs. overweight division.
finnhawc
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2007 12:22:52 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 923
Location: Wyoming
Another method to encourage masters to "move up" is to offer only one Open division and split the field after the first round. Top 50% in one Gold pool and the other 50% in the Silver pool. The idea being that the winners of each division gets paid. MDGO(Michigan Disc Golf Organization) tried this, I'm not sure how well it was recieved as I dropped down to just playing leagues right after that. I played in their first tournament that this was attempted. I won the Silver pool, interestingly enough, in a playoff against Kirk Haggadone who usually plays Masters. The Gold pool winners got 2/3 of the pro purse and 3 places were paid to Silver with the remaining 1/3. When players know that they are playing to cash I suggest aces they really work well. Or maybe practice... nah!
M_Boland
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2007 12:28:15 PM
Rank: Guest

Joined: 11/19/2007
Posts: -247
If your Pete....why would you care. YOU get the option. Masters or Pro...gezzz...I would hand out some tissues, but the box is gone!
BIGBOY
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2007 1:37:26 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/27/2005
Posts: 288
finnahawc,

That is a pretty neat idea. I like how that works out. We should give that a try at the next course challenge just to see how it goes. It might not stick but it would be fun to give it a go. Trying something new is better than doing nothing. We can't make everyone happy and I know we will not try anything new because everyone is so worried about breaking the chain. "We have always done it this way," so who cares lets try something new. "But we will have to change the way we award year end champions," So what, we will deal with it and come up with a gold and silver champion instead of open and masters. Lets mix it up...If nothing else lets go with Craig's idea and have an overweight division.
STEVO
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2007 1:55:45 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/10/2003
Posts: 228
One point in Pete's long-winded post caught my interest: If Pete, Bob, Fred, Alman, others truly played Masters, would we actually have a stronger division (in Cincy) than the youngins'??? :think
Craig
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2007 3:39:30 PM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 240
Bigger not stronger.
Fred Salaz
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2007 4:03:42 PM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,233
Quote:
Craig - 6/7/2007 5:39 PM

Bigger not stronger.


That says it all to me. We may be able to beat the Open players one round in a tournament but we're not consistent enough to beat them for the tournament. Especially in a two day event.
2Timer
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2007 5:49:51 PM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 3/30/2006
Posts: 372
Location: Ameila, Oh
Fred makes a great point. Intermediates are more consistent than recs, Am2s are more consistent than Inters, Am1s are more consistent than Am2s and so on. I don't think I am any better than say Alman or Fred, but maybe just a little more consistent. There is a fine line between someone rated 975 and someone rated 1000. It could be 2 putts and 2 upshots.
STEVO
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2007 6:06:08 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/10/2003
Posts: 228
Fred's just egging us on to compliment him on what great shape he's in for a, um, older gentleman....
finnhawc
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2007 6:46:35 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 923
Location: Wyoming
Hey you know this area is not unique in the quantity of skilled older players some of whom are brave enough to play in a division where they may not cash all the time. MI and CA are two prime examples of this. I'd like to see these local tourneys get $1000 added cash then this would be a, mostly, moot point. There would be more attraction power for all pros from surrounding states. Small little C tiers would become more popular with great players/payouts to all divisions. Cut Masters fees in half o.k.; of course, the division that pays the highest entry fees should proportionally get the largest percentage payout. With $1000 or $500 added cash it would be easier to share than say $100 or $200. If you go through the PDGA tournament info you'll find some C and B tiers with 50% of the field paid and nice purse for the winners of each divisions-this is added cash at work. As for baggers, I like the traditional way of handling that-hackle them profusely at the awards presentations. 'MOVE UP! BAGGER! PLAY WITH THE RIGHT GROUP! MOVE UP! BAGGER!!'
BIGBOY
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2007 6:54:40 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/27/2005
Posts: 288
Sounds like finnahawc wants to add some cash to the local tourney's? Did I hear that right.
finnhawc
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2007 7:53:43 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 923
Location: Wyoming
When I have it I certainly will... soon enough. Muh, huh, huh, ha, ha! Come mini-me! Arm the laser :lurk
STEVO
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:03:25 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/10/2003
Posts: 228
No, I think Finn's saying he can't wait until another year or two, when HE'S old enough to play the role of "bagger" (just kidding). John F., you are correct. The old peer pressure technique has long been a pretty good way to let some players know where they're supposed to be, or where they're supposed to move to. Usually this worked best with AM's who, after winning a trunkload of plastic, needed a nudge to turn pro. With entry fees being higher and higher all around, I'm not sure how effective that is these days....

I've long been an advocate of widening the gap in entry fees between Open and Master as the primary solution to the problem that people like Pete and many others seem to think exists. For example, in the Bluegrass Open, it was pointed out that the highest rated player in the entire tournament played Master. The Open/Master entry fee split was something like $94/$79, not sure if I got those numbers exactly right. My point is, if the Master entry fee was more like $45-50, I'm almost positive Dean would have played Open, as well as a couple others. In addition, the low entry fee would have drawn out a few more old guys who didn't play at all (because the entry fee would be so low, and the cream of the division would now be playing Open). More players overall, the best playing the best in the Open division, sound pretty good? One more thing, the added money, instead of being "redistributed" (yeah, I said it) into the Open, could then be properly funneled to the pros (men and women), who will have contributed two to two and a half times more to the purse than Masters.
bobherb
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:05:16 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 449

1. Tournament directors have the flexibility to determine entry fees and $ allocation.
       The average age of T.D.'s is well over 40. Do Open players expect Masters aged and older T.D.'s to raise added $ for them exclusively??? Complain enough and the added $ may dry up!

2. Young Ams are the future of Disc Golf - their skills are likely, able to improve, allowing them to play Open in the future.
       Masters aged players are less likely to improve their skills - their next division is likely Grand Masters. (What is Ed Hedrick's excuse for not playing Open, anyway?)

3. Keying on the many, young Advanced players to become Open players makes more sense than trying to nudge a few older (and usually more stubborn) players to play Open. There are just a few freaks of nature, older guys, who can still play near their potential - and they usually get tired after one round per day and falter.cry

If younger players really want to play for some serious $ go to some A and NT tourneys. I went to many of these per year when I played Open. If you cannot cut it in Open play in advanced until you improve your skills.

Try to concentrate on your game more than on who is playing which division and you will likely play better. HAVE FUN!!!

O.K., Hammer away :bonkhead  on the old men now!!! After all, they are ruining the game by working on courses, T.D.ing. tournaments, running/organizing the PDGA for the past 20+ years, and just trying to have some quality time with their courses.wave

 

BIGBOY
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:38:11 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/27/2005
Posts: 288
Bob,

Where are you getting your statistics at? I am not sure I agree with the average TD being over 40. I would think it would skew more toward 35 to 37. Look at our local Pdga events
- Chris (Williamsburg)
- stick (gulley)
- Nick (Monroe and Fairfield)
- Pig (kuhns and Dumont)

I believe all of these people are under 40.

- Dan(Disc n' Dat)
- Fred ( Kentucky States and Idlewild Masters)

I believe all of these are over 40. I could be wrong though. Fred looks like he is 27.

Just nit-pickin' for the fun of it. kuhns
BIGBOY
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:38:51 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/27/2005
Posts: 288
And yes Bob, I know I should end a sentence with a prepostion.
finnhawc
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:27:44 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 923
Location: Wyoming
Ken Climo will be Masters eligable in less than two years; so, I hope he plays in his age group only. Because, clearly, his chances of cashing will deminish when the second round fatigue sets in. All I know is, Masters age was 35 and they changed it for a good reason. IMO they should change it again to 45 yrs. young for the good of the game. Sandbagging is sandbagging no matter who doos it; does ya know what I is sayin'!
2Timer
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:39:21 AM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 3/30/2006
Posts: 372
Location: Ameila, Oh
Ken Climo will be eligible for Masters on January 1, 2008! Masters age players used to show up for tournaments down in Florida and if Kenny wasn't there they would play open and if he was there they would play Masters. I used to think how pitiful that was.
finnhawc
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:48:16 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 923
Location: Wyoming
Exactly, Dave!
bobherb
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:38:59 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 449

BIGBOY:
Where are you getting your statistics at? I am not sure I agree with the average TD being over 40. I would think it would skew more toward 35 to 37. Look at our local Pdga events
- Chris (Williamsburg)
- stick (gulley)
- Nick (Monroe and Fairfield)
- Pig (BigBoy and Dumont)

I believe all of these people are under 40.

- Dan(Disc n' Dat)
- Fred ( Kentucky States and Idlewild Masters)

I believe all of these are over 40.


------------
REPLY:
Dan and Fred are over 50 and have been running tourneys many years.
The others you mention are rookie PDGA T.D.'s. They deserve compliments though, just the same - thanks guys.


==================================================
BigBoy:
OH And yes Bob, I know I should end a sentence with a prepostion.
-----------------
REPLY:
What exactly is a prepostion, John?


==================================================


finnhawc:
Ken Climo will be Masters eligable in less than two years; so, I hope he plays in his age group only. Because, clearly, his chances of cashing will deminish when the second round fatigue sets in. All I know is, Masters age was 35 and they changed it for a good reason. IMO they should change it again to 45 yrs. young for the good of the game. Sandbagging is sandbagging no matter who doos it; does ya know what I is sayin'!
-----------
REPLY:

There are a few freaks of nature who still got game. I stated that in my previous post. Climo is a sandbagger in every tourney he enters. He should have to play left handed and throw forehanded every throw, or play a different sport. When I was in my thirties and he was in his twenties I played quite a few rounds with him. Also, I hope the age is actually moved up to 50 - I will be there in 2 years.


===============================================================

2Timer:
Ken Climo will be eligible for Masters on January 1, 2008! Masters age players used to show up for tournaments down in Florida and if Kenny wasn't there they would play open and if he was there they would play Masters. I used to think how pitiful that was.

-----------

REPLY:

Once again, you guys are keying on a few examples (really just one, Climo) to make generalizations - this proves nothing!

Also, Dave, can you really read the minds of Florida disc golfers?

=======================================================

Many of my points in the previous post were not disputed - any more feeble efforts out there...?

Here it is again: Look for question marks (??????)...

1. Tournament directors have the flexibility to determine entry fees and $ allocation.
       The average age of T.D.'s is well over 40. Do Open players expect Masters aged and older T.D.'s to raise added $ for them exclusively??? Complain enough and the added $ may dry up!

2. Young Ams are the future of Disc Golf - their skills are likely, able to improve, allowing them to play Open in the future.
       Masters aged players are less likely to improve their skills - their next division is likely Grand Masters. (What is Ed Hedrick's excuse for not playing Open, anyway?)

3. Keying on the many, young Advanced players to become Open players makes more sense than trying to nudge a few older (and usually more stubborn) players to play Open. There are just a few freaks of nature, older guys, who can still play near their potential - and they usually get tired after one round per day and falter.

If younger players really want to play for some serious $ go to some A and NT tourneys. I went to many of these per year when I played Open. If you cannot cut it in Open play in advanced until you improve your skills.

Try to concentrate on your game more than on who is playing which division and you will likely play better. HAVE FUN!!!

O.K., Hammer away   on the old men now!!! After all, they are ruining the game by working on courses, T.D.ing. tournaments, running/organizing the PDGA for the past 20+ years, and just trying to have some quality time with their courses.

===================================================

If all else fails to encourage you to enjoy your own game and stop worrying about others' division choice:

1. Call Fred, Adam Jones, Chris, etc. and ask to help work on a course - it may do you good.

2. Contact the PDGA and ask for a change in divisional structure to be brought to a vote.

3. T.D. your own tourney.

4. Take a break from organized disc golf and reflect...

finnhawc
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2007 2:05:22 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 923
Location: Wyoming
Bobert me o.k. you o.k., o.k.?
bobherb
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2007 2:07:31 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 449
O.K.!!!
matthew_blakely
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2007 2:47:26 PM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 496
Risk Reward, There is little or no risk for bob herbert in masters but he still wants rewarded in general.
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