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Rank: Veteran
Joined: 6/9/2007
Posts: 217
Location: Noakley
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Of all the courses that are within 30mins of us here in the Cincy area....which course challenges you the most...and why? Is it Idlewild because of its tight wooded shots, multiple shots to the pin and when you actually do get to throw your socks off...it's a long way? Is it Mt. Airy because of its diversity and the fact that you swear you finally have #10 figured out? Is it Harbin because you cuss at your final score saying you should be atleast 10 strokes better and you had a bad day? Is it Banklick because you were happy and content and BAM the creekbed ate another one of your strokes and dashed all your hopes and dreams?
I mean...isn't it all about you..the course...and overcoming the monster that has beaten you black and blue for so long?
I personally can go to Idlewild and be perfectly content with shooting a 75+..from the shorts... while others of you would call that a bad day. So while I believe when the weather breaks and I'm playing Idlewild everyday..it will vastly improve my game...I don't fear it. I don't fear Mt. Scary because I know that my limited arm will just rack up the strokes and I play it as a Par 4 and just admit I have a long way to go. Almost the same for Banklick. I take my punishment and walk on. I know the holes I can do well on and only mad when I miss those shots. I don't dwell on being 150ft short on my drives and rely on my approach game to bail me out. Others of you may go nuts at Banklick on a windy day and cuss the wind gods that forsake you.
My personal demon has to be Monroe. Was out there again today with Chad and the course layout would seem so easy. None of the raw distances are out of my range. You look at the map and you think: "O look..another Winton Woods with a few real holes" and then you get there and your dreams of shooting 24 under are crushed like your childhood dreams. I mean what's so stinking hard about deucing a 206ft shot?...uphill..with a big oak in the way? What's so tough about deucing a 186ft hole with a 6foot gap and bending right? What's so stinking hard about a 200 ft downhill shot...with 15foot fairway and several small trees blocking you?
I feel like I just drank jager all night and told the 7'6" muscle head bouncer I thought his girlfriend and mother would be a nice combination for my whims. The course punishes me for every stupid thing I try. I'm not saying the course is poorly designed..I'm saying the course is designed perfectly to expose every weakness that I have. I am 100% certain that if I played with just a Wizard I would shave 10 strokes off my total..but I'm not going there. I mean this isn't the first time I've played Monroe...I probably have 50 rounds there. I still stink at the course and it is still one of my favorites.
So what course is the demon inside your head?
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Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 848
Location: Wyoming
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Woodland mound by your last criteria-I haven't broken 14 down yet and it seems so easy. Gulley is right there as well for seeming easier than my scores indicate.
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Rank: Regular
Joined: 11/7/2007
Posts: 98
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I would say Idlewild; for a couple reasons:
1) used to playing all courses as par 3, problem with this is I tend to psyche myself out, because after 6 or 7 holes can be 10 over.
so it gets me down that way (think I'm gonna start playing it as all 4's)
2)tighter than a nun's bum! I feel if I can score good here, I can score good ANYWHERE!
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Rank: Extreme Veteran
Joined: 6/28/2005
Posts: 338
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Cool topic.....
I find the most challenging course that I play on is wherever the first round is held. I'm usually a slow starter in tournaments, if not on my own volition, but my game always seems to be conservative in the early rounds of tourneys. I've always heard the phrase "You can't win the tourney in the first round, but you can lose it". I find this to be VERY true, and especially in this game.
I always try to make sure that I do not lose the tournament in the first round - nothing is worse than a Saturday lunch knowing that your entry fee is wasted, it's going to be extremely tough even to cash, and that you are pretty much wasting your weekend being out there. Hence, play safe(r), don't bogey, don't go for it all, and make sure you are in a position to sniff the leaders after the first round. Joe Bagger may have shot a -12 down in the first round, but it's not likely that he's going to do it again. Be part of the field, and play the averages. I'll much rather take 3 good rounds with a chance to win in the 4th over going for everything and scoring 10 stroke swings up and down over 4 rounds.
Courses themselves aren't really too big of a factor in my scoring. Long or short, tight or open, they really all mean the same thing in the end - put it in the chains in as few strokes as possible. I try to approach the venue as a "course", but rather 18 holes. There are usually times where I can take a chance off the tee because a bad shot would play to one of my strengths. There are always times where I'll throttle back a little because a certain doom is met with a less than perfect shot. But there's no course out there that would make me wet my shorts at the idea of a round there.
If pressed, I'd say that Oxford is the most challenging course to my game in the Cincinnati area. Lots of blind shots combined with my few rounds there means I find myself out of position there a lot. While there are some cool holes there and great scenery abounds, it really seems that the design of that course is punishing to people with low/no rounds at the course.
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Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 11/18/2003
Posts: 944
Location: Fairfield, OH
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It's harder to shoot a 54 at Mt. Airy than it is to shoot a 72 at Idlewild.
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Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 442
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I strongly agree Nick.
Airy used to be much easier than it is now.
I know some holes have been made easier with the removal of undergrowth/bushes but...
Players now have to play "around" the ever expanding trees there.
Along with the originals, there have been many "new" trees planted since the course was installed.
Hole #'s 10 and 18 are examples of tougher holes due to trees getting larger and "in the way".
Airy was a power course to begin with and now it is even more so.
I broke 50 there a few times when I was younger but I seriously doubt I will ever do it again.
Airy is very challenging for me, whereas Idlewild involves more finess; therefore I can better keep up with the big boys there.
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Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 5/22/2006
Posts: 691
Location: in the chains
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Quote:NEngle - 1/28/2008 3:58 PM
It's harder to shoot a 54 at Mt. Airy than it is to shoot a 72 at Idlewild. I agree with this also.
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Rank: Extreme Veteran
Joined: 6/28/2005
Posts: 338
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Like Bob said, it's only getting harder...
But is that the real measure you use to judge your scores? What "par" is? I'd think I'd call Airy par 58-59. If the measurement of the your abilities is breaking par, I'd guess less than 20 percent of disc golfers break the par 54 at Airy - are these bad DG'ers?
Where does the PDGA's SSA play into all this? Idlewild is an SSA all-star - it's always on the top 10 list. Is it the hardest course out there though?
I'd like to see a metric that rated PDGA SSA over a period of time (say, last five years) compared to "course par" and see what happens.
-7 at Airy is the record, right? Or 10? I don't know.... I thought is was Climo a couple years ago at Worlds. Is that even attainable anymore?
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Rank: Veteran
Joined: 5/14/2006
Posts: 261
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Gotta be AJ those open fairways drive in nuts. Nothing not to aim for so i go left and right anywhere but toward the basket. The woods holes are birdable, but no ace chance where is the fun in that? I tend to have trouble at woodland because of the blacktop greens, where i great shot skips into the abyss.
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Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 11/18/2003
Posts: 944
Location: Fairfield, OH
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The SSA was developed in 1998. Mt.Airy's has always hovered around 54.
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Rank: Veteran
Joined: 3/10/2003
Posts: 226
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Mine are Monroe, Mt. Airy, Banklick. Any guesses why?  Idlewild is unique in that it is a true par 72 course, but most touring pros can shoot between 61 and 69 (-3 to -11). At Mt. Airy, in a field of 25 pros, 3 or 4 may break par (54) per round. So Mt. Airy is way harder.
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Rank: Extreme Veteran
Joined: 3/30/2006
Posts: 367
Location: Ameila, Oh
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I have walked off Idlewild cussing that I only shot 68 or 69, but I have never walked off cussing at Airy after shooting par! With everything being par 3's at Airy there is no room for error which is what makes it so challenging. At the 98 worlds I shot par one round and jumped almost 20 spots.
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Rank: Extreme Veteran
Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 456
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Knob Hill in Pittsburgh
Winthrop Gold in South Carolina
I have not played very well at these two courses. They are the first ones to come to mind.
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Rank: Expert
Joined: 3/1/2003
Posts: 1,291
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Wow, one of the most interesting posts I've seen on this message board. Makes for good discussion. Thanks Lee. I'll try to add my 2 cents when I get more of a chance, but just had to say I really like this thread. It's nice to see something that really supports good discussion on our message board.
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Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 442
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Here is what I consider the pro pars on the present holes at AIRY:
HOLE PAR
1--- 3
2--- 4
3--- 4
4--- 4
5--- 3
6--- 4
7--- 3 (a tough one)
8--- 3 "
9--- 4
10- 5
11- 3
12- 3
13- 3
14- 3 (a tough one)
15- 3
16- 4
17- 3
18- 3 (getting tougher)
TOTAL PAR - 62
I therefore consider a 54 then, as -8.
Also, I consider a hole as a par 3 only if players can reach and deuce it at least once per 5-10 times playing it.
Some of the holes I have labeled as par 3's are definite par 4's for all but the longer throwing pros and some advanced players.
Anyone agree?
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Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 848
Location: Wyoming
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Mostly right by me except holes 2 and 3 are par three for sure and so is 9 I think. Par isn't determined by the birdie possibilities it is the average score on the hole that becomes par, right? Pro Par 59 or 60, perhaps? Of course I believe in par 2's so that's how radical I get. Fump.
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Rank: Extreme Veteran
Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 330
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
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I think that 2, 3 and 16 at Airy are 3s, not 4s. There is an argument against that though.
As to the hardest course for me, White Park in BG presents a big challenge. For some reason, I like shots that are down tunnels and don't give a lot of options and the wide open spaces seem to present a range estimation challenge to me.
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Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 5/22/2005
Posts: 1,009
Location: Nati
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http://www.pdga.com/documents/PublicPar.pdfThis is a suggested par evaluation based on distance and difficulty. not on popular opinion anyway, par doesn't mean much but a way to help add scores ya still take the same amount of strokes to finish no matter the course par Its more of just a guide to help rate your lvl of play.
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Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 442
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Anyone who has played much ball golf (which has a "bit" of seniority on disc golf) will tell you that ball golf holes par is based on the ability to reach a green in a certain # of shots:
Par 3's greens can be reached in 1 shot.
Par 4's......................................2 shots.
Par 5's......................................3 shots.
I will use some ball golf jargon here...
If a player reaches a green in "regulation" (as described above), and "one putts" (makes the first putt), that player has birdied the hole. If a player "2 putts", it is a par.
Just because ball golfers in a tournament average below 3.5 on a par four, the par is not changed from 4 to 3 - this just means it is an easy par 4.
On the other hand, if a par 4's average score is greater than 4.5, it does not become a par 5 - it is just a tough par 4.
A good analogy is Idlewild's hole #'s 8 (old placement) and hole # 10. Hole #8 was an easy par 4 and 10 is still a tough par 4. Fred changed the pin position on # 8 to make it a tougher par 4.
Sometimes, on rare occasions, a green will be reached in less shots than regulation, but this is rare (perhaps least rare on par 5's by the big boys) if the designer(s) has done a good job.
Ball golf par has always been based on the # of strokes it takes to reach the green + 2 more strokes for putting.
That is why ball golfers, hundreds of years ago, coined the phrase "Drive For Show, Putt For Dough$$$!!!" Ball golf has flourished fairly well over the centuries - I think it prudent and beneficial we follow in the same footprints.
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Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 11/18/2003
Posts: 944
Location: Fairfield, OH
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I've played my share of ball golf & I'll tell you par is the number of strokes you should expect to take to complete a hole. Let's take hole 2 @ Airy for an example. If you record a three, do you consider that a birdie? If that were your first hole of the Pig & you missed it, for whatever reason, what score would you expect to receive? The problem with your "green in regulation" idea is that you'll have a hard time defining a disc golf green.
On topic: Hoover can kiss my derriere. I can't get that course for the world.
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Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 442
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Hoover has gotten the best of me more than once too.
Especially since the pins and tees can be moved so much.
It is fairly long too - and when the wind kicks up... whew!!!
I would define a golf green as fairly unencumbered (to the quarterback - no, different sport) to the basket a radius of about 70 - 120 ft.
#2 at Airy is a fairly easy par 4 but it is often tough to 3, and definitely not 2ed often at all.
I realize ball golf and disc golf are not totally comparable, but the theory of reaching the green in regulation can be loosely applied.
A basket is much larger than a ball golf hole and this does make a disc golf green potentially much larger than a ball golf hole.
Wind affects discs a lot more than golf balls too.
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Rank: Veteran
Joined: 3/10/2003
Posts: 226
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Until player ratings and course ratings, and all of that other statistical crap completely take over our DG universe, we can still define something like course par the way the designer(s) intended. Bob, why do you think Mt. Airy has earned the reputation by some of the top pros as a world class course, one of the hardest on their schedule, even to this date? Why does it still rank among the top 5 courses on many of these pros' lists? Because it is one of the most challenging and demanding par 54 courses around!! It totally separates the men from the boys. Do you think Ken Climo or Barry Schulz would like to see it considered a par 60? You think rocket arm Avery Jenkins (or Blakely for that matter) would say hole 2 should be a par 4? Mt. Airy kicks my butt 90% of the time, but the par is 54. The two-shot par 3 hole (several at Mt. Airy) is unique to disc golf, and it helps in toughening up a course, so I think it's appropriate.... I believe that statistically, Idlewild probably plays more like a 68 par (longs), but Fred has accurately defined it as par 72, in my opinion. The opposite for Winthrop (USDGC course). It's a par 68, but many could argue for it to be a 72....
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Rank: Extreme Veteran
Joined: 9/18/2005
Posts: 330
Location: Where it puts the lotion on its skin
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speaking of ball golf, did anyone see tiger's putt at the buick invitational this weekend ... wow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e0oSGzljms
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Rank: Veteran
Joined: 3/10/2003
Posts: 226
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Mark, we were posting at the same time. Your post is more entertaining. :bounce
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Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 11/18/2003
Posts: 944
Location: Fairfield, OH
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STEVEO is a smart dude.
Tiger is almost as good as me. ;)
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