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Wanting to add new courses in S. Florida, and clueless Options
Dolfan0925
Posted: Thursday, May 08, 2008 1:35:38 AM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 5/8/2008
Posts: 2
On exactly how to go about it.  I'm from Cincinnati, loved Mt. Airy, Harbin Park, and Winton Woods.  Now I live in the West Palm Beach area and there is pretty much nothing in the way of courses.  So I've decided(about an hour ago) that I'm gonna change that.  Anybody on here successfully start a new course?  Was wondering if there was any advice on stuff that I definitely should/should not do as far as trying to get support/funding from the local gov't, ect.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Tony
Dolfan0925
Posted: Thursday, May 08, 2008 1:37:20 AM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 5/8/2008
Posts: 2
Also was wondering if there are maps of one of those three courses available anywhere, as I'm very familiar with those courses and a layout would help me with the design of a new course here.

TY
bobherb
Posted: Thursday, May 08, 2008 3:55:58 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 445
You could probably find the closest disc golf club in the area from PDGA.com for some help/support.
Course maps can be found under "courses" on this site.
A well written letter to the local park board is a plus, and attending a park meeting is a good idea too.
mikekem
Posted: Thursday, May 08, 2008 5:40:22 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/16/2008
Posts: 400
Location: Lebanon
A park will usually want a budget to look at so do a bit of leg work and get some quotes for tees, signs, baskets, and the miscellaneous. Check out http://www.innovadiscs.com/coursedesign/index.htm I wouldn't use this budget, I would get quotes from your area. Many times you can get discounts based on the fact this is for a public park. Also I wouldn't pay anyone for course design, if there is a local club remotely close to the area they will be more than happy to help with design for free.
Fred Salaz
Posted: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:42:46 PM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,215
 
If this club was to charge for course design then it wouldn't be afraid to spend any money the way it does now. There is money to be made in course design but how can a professional(like me for instance) compete with a club that insists on designing courses for free. That's what clubs do "you say" BUT is this the same club that insists that the parks have tons of money and resourses for course improvements and we should let the parks provide materials and man power "cause we don't want to spend our money" and in the end nothing gets done and we're providing free services. I don't get it..... dumb
andersab
Posted: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:41:22 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 5/22/2006
Posts: 692
Location: in the chains
Fred Salaz wrote:
 
If this club was to charge for course design then it wouldn't be afraid to spend any money the way it does now. There is money to be made in course design but how can a professional(like me for instance) compete with a club that insists on designing courses for free. That's what clubs do "you say" BUT is this the same club that insists that the parks have tons of money and resourses for course improvements and we should let the parks provide materials and man power "cause we don't want to spend our money" and in the end nothing gets done and we're providing free services. I don't get it..... dumb


But yet HB can still do and make money...

Anyways, isn't this just a sport that we all love to play and the more options the better.  Designing a course for a park to me is a privilege.  We should only be so grateful that we have the privilege... not to mention its just another way to increase the sport's and club's visibility in the different communities.
Fred Salaz
Posted: Friday, May 09, 2008 12:11:43 PM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,215
Brad, that's all good and everything but on the other hand the club is trying to raise money for tournaments by taking money from the players when it could be making money selling and designing courses and adding that money into the purses. You're making chicken feed when you could be making caviar(you know what I mean).  If I'm wrong on this tell me and I'll shut up.
I don't get the HB thing.
mikekem
Posted: Friday, May 09, 2008 1:13:09 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/16/2008
Posts: 400
Location: Lebanon
I agree it would be nice to derive some funds from parks. But the courses I've been involved in installing had pretty frugal parks departments. I think some day there may be the opportunity profit on course design but it is hard enough to get parks to agree to even put courses in. If a club makes a profit from installing a course the parks may see this as an ulterior motive. Public parks don't generate money like Pebble Beach where you pay a great deal of money to play. We're trying to grow the sport at this stage in disc golf. I think most clubs are more interested in creating a new place to play rather than raising money.

It might be different if course design was some kind of inclusive package that included baskets, signs, tees and installation. You tell me, does that define course design?
bobherb
Posted: Friday, May 09, 2008 1:31:45 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 445

Fred has poured himself into Idlewild (for no compensation) and has been critcized (in the recent past) for trying to motivate others to work on courses - the criticism was...  "Let the parks take care of the courses - it's THEIR job".

Now the talk is that the club should volunteer their time - "The parks have very little resources - we need to help them".

Anyone see the contrast here???
 

andersab
Posted: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:05:05 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 5/22/2006
Posts: 692
Location: in the chains
bobherb wrote:

Fred has poured himself into Idlewild (for no compensation) and has been critcized (in the recent past) for trying to motivate others to work on courses - the criticism was...  "Let the parks take care of the courses - it's THEIR job".

Now the talk is that the club should volunteer their time - "The parks have very little resources - we need to help them".

Anyone see the contrast here???
 



Bob, I think that you are misquoting general consensus...

The club should not spend $$ on improvements, volunteering is our best resources.  If the parks want to improve a course and provide materials, then I think everyone agrees to help.  Labor has never been frowned upon in my experience as a club member, spending money has been frowned upon. 

Once we start spending $$ on a course, would we not need to appropriate $$ for every course?  How do we make that decision?  Who makes that decision?  Can we upset parks by not appropriating money?

Its easy to say that the club doesn't want to do anything but you also forget that there have been quite a few new courses installed by volunteer club members AND we didn't have to spend any money other than maybe buying food as a work day.

Lets just make sure we get our facts right... maybe should attend a meeting to get caught up.

BTW, I commend everything that Fred does and do try to help when I have the time to.
Fred Salaz
Posted: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:12:11 PM
Rank: Expert

Joined: 2/27/2003
Posts: 1,215
Mike, that is something the club could sell to parks, the whole package. We sell them on the disc golf course for a set price and we do all the work and what ever money is left over we donate to a tournament. It's called a contract, play grounds, ball courts etc are done this way why not disc golf courses. In that way the course is done correctly and we don't have to come in and make changes.
mikekem
Posted: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:22:50 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/16/2008
Posts: 400
Location: Lebanon
bobherb wrote:

Fred has poured himself into Idlewild (for no compensation) and has been critcized (in the recent past) for trying to motivate others to work on courses - the criticism was...  "Let the parks take care of the courses - it's THEIR job".

Now the talk is that the club should volunteer their time - "The parks have very little resources - we need to help them".

Anyone see the contrast here???
 



This is a bit beyond this thread but I think designing a course and building a course at two totally different things. In creating a disc golf course the design would take very little effort compared to the amount of work involved in putting the fairways in. That is not to say the design is unimportant. Did HB Clark build the Mason Park he designed? I doubt it.

I don't recall ever saying that it's the parks job to do all the work. Disc golfers are very particular and I think it's best to have players involved in the work. It has been my experience that when the players aren't involved in the work process things go wrong (like tees pointing the in the wrong direction). But parks do have access to equipment that the clubs don't have such as bobcats that make the work process move much faster. Some kind of cooperative needs to take place to make a course. A relationship between park workers and club workers can be hard to develop especially since club members are free on weekends mostly and park workers are on duty during the work week.

But like I said this probably isn't the right spot for a debate on parks work vs player work discussion.
mikekem
Posted: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:28:07 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/16/2008
Posts: 400
Location: Lebanon
Fred Salaz wrote:
Mike, that is something the club could sell to parks, the whole package. We sell them on the disc golf course for a set price and we do all the work and what ever money is left over we donate to a tournament. It's called a contract, play grounds, ball courts etc are done this way why not disc golf courses. In that way the course is done correctly and we don't have to come in and make changes.


It seems like parks need to be sold on the idea of disc golf.  It seems like less of a priority to parks than baseball or soccer.   Baseball and soccer are time tested and seen at every park in my town.  Disc golf is growing but it isn't in the minds of parks developers like the typical activities of a park like playgrounds, soccer, and baseball.  There may come a  day when we can charge a premium to put a course in but right now it doesn't seem like parks are knocking down doors to get courses installed.   Thats my impression anyway.
bobherb
Posted: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:39:28 PM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 8/10/2004
Posts: 445
Mike,
You are new, motivated blood, and very beneficial to the club.
Keep up the fine work.
I was referring to occasions when some club members were making excuses for not showing up for work days.
There was some strife but I think all parties made peace.
Also, it was made known that many folks who did not work on courses helped out in various other ways.
HB553
Posted: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 3:11:52 PM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 2/24/2008
Posts: 7
A quick correction, HB did not design the Mason Course, and have never been to Mason; although I did spend a day driving to Mason's contracted design engineering firm in Cinci and meet with the parks and some of their board, and explained the concept of disc golf, gave them disc and minis, and explained budgets and construction to them.

In trying to promote disc golf as a sport and a facility that is a good addition to communities, I do make alot of these trips that do not pay off, and some one else does the design, sells the baskets and signs, and maybe even does the installation work. I also go to trade shows, make presentations to state and national conferances, and write articals for park publications. Hopefully this will pay dividens for all disc golfers in more and better courses.

But, I do offer design services, sign packages, and complete turn key installations (like Jenny Wiley or Madisonville KY - grand opening this weekend) hiring under employed disc golfers along the way under my liability and workers comp insursnce. And I pay sales comissions to disc golfers that give me referrals that turn into a contract.

There is a place for both volenteer involvement and professional contracts in disc golf courses just as there is in soccer or t-ball. And as most of you know, course installation and maintenance takes alot time and equipment to make a course that players want to return to.
mikekem
Posted: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 6:22:29 PM

Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/16/2008
Posts: 400
Location: Lebanon
My mistake. I wonder who did design the course in that case. The design is actually very good but I know of no one that was apart of it.
HB553
Posted: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 9:54:32 PM
Rank: Tree Hukker

Joined: 2/24/2008
Posts: 7
I think the parks employees did it, I guess I am a good teacher!!!
andersab
Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:44:01 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 5/22/2006
Posts: 692
Location: in the chains
HB553 wrote:
I think the parks employees did it, I guess I am a good teacher!!!


Apparently, it turned out awesome with the land that they had available.
finnhawc
Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:55:25 AM

Rank: Elite Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 906
Location: Wyoming
Dolfan0925 wrote:
On exactly how to go about it.  I'm from Cincinnati, loved Mt. Airy, Harbin Park, and Winton Woods.  Now I live in the West Palm Beach area and there is pretty much nothing in the way of courses.  So I've decided(about an hour ago) that I'm gonna change that.  Anybody on here successfully start a new course?  Was wondering if there was any advice on stuff that I definitely should/should not do as far as trying to get support/funding from the local gov't, ect.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Tony


If you build on a college or university campus you will qualify for the Matching Basket program with the PDGA run by another genius course designer (HBnFred) named Pad Timmons. Even Burnet could qualify-or Cincy St.(not much room)   http://www.discgolffoundation.net/baskets.html
DISCfunctional
Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2008 6:23:27 PM

Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/2/2004
Posts: 234
Location: Monroe
When I attended the meeting about a year ago I recall them saying the architect designed it after some research.
PaulDmt
Posted: Monday, May 19, 2008 7:16:02 AM
Rank: Extreme Veteran

Joined: 2/22/2003
Posts: 160
The Mason course is pretty nice.  There's a little walking between holes but good hole lengths and use of elevation.  (I think me and Ken were at the same meeting when we asked)  The parks did refer to HB when we asked who designed it.  HB, guess they found enough to go on...  knockedout

As to the original question, keep attending the park meetings.  Show them that there's interest and that you are not a one and done visitor.


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